[0:00] So, welcome everybody. We're gonna spend some time in Hebrews, and I thought we're gonna move along a little quickly in this intro part, because we know people have been waiting. So, let's pray.
[0:14] Oh, wonderful God, we ask you to open our minds and our hearts and help us to hear and discuss and be curious about what you would have us know during this time. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
[0:28] Amen. All right, well, what do you know about Hebrews? He makes good coffee. Sorry. Is that a coffee shop?
[0:39] It is. I heard once that, not heard once, but I've heard several times that we don't know for sure who wrote it. And I think I remembered that because the person that said it to me said it could have been written by a woman.
[0:54] So, that was interesting to me that perhaps it was written by a woman, but maybe not. We just really don't know is what I've heard. Right. And that is what I know is that we don't know.
[1:05] And there's some thought, you know, most of the epistles are written as letters to churches or communities.
[1:15] And Hebrews is a little bit different. It's not written in the same style. What was that?
[1:27] I don't know. Anyway, I don't think it was anything at my house. So, it's written in a different style. It doesn't start out like to the people of or blessings to you in the same way that some of the other epistles are done.
[1:49] Kelly disappeared. Yeah, she's coming back, I think. Okay. So, anyway, and so what we do know is that it was probably written between 60 and 90 A.D., so late in the first century.
[2:07] And there's some thought that it was actually written, that it was a sermon that was preached. And so, because it reads a little bit like a sermon, and it has a message that's kind of like a sermon.
[2:23] And so, there's some thought, some biblical scholars and commentaries will say that it was a sermon that was preached and recorded, obviously, by hand.
[2:34] And then that sermon was taken to other churches and preached. So, it was, and part of that was the important background of why do we have Hebrews?
[2:54] Why, what was the purpose of it being written? And so, I wanted to start a little bit of that.
[3:04] So, let me just ask you for a minute. How many different voices do you hear in your head at any given time? Like, not schizophrenic voices, but, you know, imagine that you have a crowd of dogs, and they're among this crowd of dogs.
[3:19] All of a sudden, two or three people start to whistle, like for a dog. What do the dogs do? They're like, who is that? Who's calling? Who's whistling?
[3:30] So, if you think about that from our perspective in our world, how many of those voices do you have going on in your head on a regular basis?
[3:41] My mother, my father, my husband, God's words.
[3:53] Myself. A lot of myself. A lot of yourself. Yeah. We often have a lot of self-talk going on. Right now, we're in a time and a season in the world where it's like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk.
[4:07] There are things coming at us from all over the place. And so, the part of the purpose of Hebrews and part of our time together is that Hebrews is a call to two things.
[4:20] One is it's a call to listen to what God has to say. And the reason for that is back then and even now, some people aren't listening to what God has to say.
[4:32] And some of it's because of all those voices. So, if you imagine that somebody who is a faithful Christian, someone who even reads the Bible, and then they're in a life situation where they kind of get a little bit of a hint as to what God wants, but then they bolt.
[4:54] They don't bolt, like, away from faith. They just are on their way on a journey without catching the rest of the story. We're not in our current era.
[5:06] I mean, not just this time, because it's so chaotic. We're not typically good listeners. And sometimes when it comes to faith, people will start talking.
[5:16] We'll be like, I know that. I know that. I already read that. Yep, I remember that. And we kind of, hmm. Sometimes I find, and maybe you do, that when you're reading scripture for one thing, and then you go away from it, then you come back to it.
[5:34] You see something you never saw before. So, Hebrews is a call for us to listen to God. It was a call for the people that were listening and listening to this sermon, as some people said, wherever it was preached, to listen to God.
[5:49] The second part, which we'll hear pretty clearly, is that the message was to pay attention to the fact that Jesus was the most important messenger.
[6:01] That listen to God, but now we're asking something. The people in the communities, they were used to hearing about listening to God. They knew the commandments.
[6:12] They kind of had the gist of the Jewish way of life and listening to God and going to temple. Jesus was a whole different story.
[6:23] And this wasn't so long after Jesus had died and was resurrected and then ascended. And most people were not Christians.
[6:33] So, it kind of gives you an idea of why did people need to be reminded to not only listen to God, but to listen and to look at the teachings by story at that time of what Jesus said.
[6:49] And so, one person described it as that not only were not very many people Christian, but some of the people in the neighborhoods where some of the people that were listening to this sermon or reading this letter ultimately, but we know that they heard it verbally back then.
[7:14] Can I jump in for a moment? Linda, is there a TV on where you are? I just turned it down. You have your earbuds in, right?
[7:27] So, you can't. Okay. I did hear it too. Thank you. And I was like, please tell me we're not going back to that trouble again. Yeah, no. Okay, good. So, it was a non-Christian community.
[7:40] And so, if this was, in fact, a sermon that was sent around to a variety of churches to be heard, what you have is a group of believers listening to a sermon, reminding them, don't get distracted by other messengers.
[7:57] Don't go down the wrong path because their neighbors, many of them were saying or criticizing them, were even, they talk about the fact that back then there might even be people who vandalized their property and their home in somewhat ridicule of the fact that this wasn't, this, you know, this is just nonsense.
[8:21] This belief that Jesus is the actual one that we should listen to. And so, it's one of the things.
[8:35] And one commentator, I wanted to read this just because he says it better than I do. Seeing his fellow Christians in danger of jumping ship, one inspired teacher put together a powerful sermon that pulled out all the stops to show why leaving wasn't a good idea.
[8:53] The sermon, later passed around as a letter we now call the Book of Hebrews, has as its central theme the complete superiority of Christianity as a way of life.
[9:05] So, I find that to be quite interesting because, as I said, when you read the other letters that it's surrounded by, you have letters that are specific community and you can figure out what was going on.
[9:22] This one, Hebrews is sort of pointed in the direction of communities that are small Christian communities in non-Christian environments.
[9:35] Probably hearing sermons in house churches and things like that. So, I wanted us, we're going to take a look at it and the, we're going to look at the first, tonight we're going to look at the first and second chapters.
[9:56] But what I want us to do as we listen to this, this first chapter is to think what is being told and why. So, if you've heard the why of Hebrews and the context of Hebrews, then as we read this, then let's hear what we might.
[10:17] And so, I'm, I have, I have two versions in front of me. One is NRSV and the other one is the Common English Bible.
[10:30] I don't know how different they might be. So, I'm going to start with the NRSV because that's the more, probably, it's, it's, it's more authentic historically, although the Common English Bible is pretty highly reputed.
[10:47] So, I'm just going to read the, the 14 verses. Long ago, God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets. But in these last days, he has spoken to us by a son whom he appointed heir of all things through whom he also created the world.
[11:07] He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being. He sustains all things by his powerful word. When he made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high.
[11:23] Having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. So, I'm going to pause there. And you think, well, what's with the angels?
[11:37] You know, it's, yeah. What is your, what is your understanding of angels in the, in the biblical story and their job throughout all the way back to the beginning?
[11:48] To be messengers. Yeah. And warriors. And warriors. Angel armies.
[11:59] Angel armies. Yeah. Yeah. It's, um, and so if people are familiar with the old Testament scriptures, or even if they're familiar with the story around Jesus conception and birth, even if they don't buy that he's the savior, angels are a big deal.
[12:20] And it's not that we think angels are not. We, would you compare Jesus to an angel? I wouldn't. I wouldn't. But the people who are listening just might.
[12:33] And so we read in verse four, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than, than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say you are my son today?
[12:48] I have begotten you for again. I will be his father and he will be my son. And so we've got this direct line to people heard God say this about Jesus.
[13:02] I don't think we ever heard anything like that. Not even vaguely like that about angels. Angels did what God told them to do. Um, they did not, they did not practice.
[13:15] They were representative of God, but not like, not like Jesus. Um, and so then, and again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, let all God's angels worship him.
[13:30] Of the angels, he says, he makes his angels winds and his servants flames of fire. Of the, but of the son, he says, your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
[13:43] And the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore, God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.
[13:56] And in the beginning, Lord, you founded the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain. They will all wear out like clothing, like a cloak.
[14:08] You will roll them up and like clothing, they will be changed. But you are the same and your years will never end. But to which of the angels has he ever said, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.
[14:23] Are not all angel spirits in the divine service sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? Um, Um, and you know, the, the common English Bible isn't really that much different, but so when we hear this and we think about what is being said, what are some of the convincing words and phrases that are used to help the people who are, who might be listening?
[14:58] Um, what kind of tools is the writer of the sermon using to help to convince people that this is the right, this is the real thing. This is who you should follow.
[15:09] Does anything jump out? That the angels will worship him. Right. Mm hmm. So if he was an angel, there would be no, the angels would worship him.
[15:22] Mm hmm. The whole thing just seems really, um, in stark contrast, like just almost ridiculously different, you know, that he's going to have, God never says to the angels, I'll make your enemies into a footstool.
[15:39] He only said to his son. Yeah. Right. It's almost just kind of almost overly exaggerated just to make the point, maybe. Which, how do you think, what, what about that could communicate anything to our time?
[15:55] To the people that we're engaged with, um, or no, does it have any place or is it more appropriate then, but not now?
[16:13] I don't know if this is what you're going for, but I, um, like, I think a lot of times people almost worship things other than Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit.
[16:23] And they might even think that they're being spiritual about it. You know, that, um, whether it's a medium or somebody else that can talk to the dead or, you know, somebody that feels like they have an angel that talks to them or they saw something.
[16:39] I think that it always worries me that they're kind of worshiping that instead of realizing that God wants to talk to us directly. We don't need that intercession.
[16:50] Mm hmm. Anything, you have anything, Linda? Um, I guess, too, with all this virus going on, it, it just makes me think that people have to remember, too, that sports, you know, people worship these athletes.
[17:13] And it's not what life is all about. Mm hmm. I think we could probably expand that to be any famous people. Right.
[17:24] Yeah. Become, um, in some ways, idols. I mean, we used to think of maybe I can remember a time when to call somebody an idol would be a poster you'd have on your bedroom wall.
[17:41] Right. And you just, I don't know. I think it's a person. I think it's a person. Isn't it interesting that as we grow in our awareness of scripture, an idol is a whole different thing. Yes. Um, so, you know, I, I, I've known people and maybe you have, too, who you may hear them talk a lot about Jesus, but there's other people or musicians or whatever that they talk about.
[18:05] And it feels sometimes like they're the same. Yeah. They're just the, the, the passion and the enthusiasm, at least coming out is the same.
[18:18] Um, yeah. And, you know, I think about groups like you too, and some of the other groups that maybe you can think of who are not Christian per se.
[18:34] But have a lot of the same values. Um, yeah. And maybe there's others that, you know, that people of faith are kind of drawn to, but you hear them talk and they're like, they do anything to go to one of those concerts, anything.
[18:50] Right. But how does that kind of cross over into the way they live the other parts of their lives? Would you do anything to go to church and worship God?
[19:02] Yeah. Right. And sometimes I, and I, um, I was debating whether I should say this out loud, but I, I think that even pastor Tom at times people almost worshiped him.
[19:17] Yes. Came to see him and I love him clearly. Um, but I even had to tell myself that, you know, I'm not there worshiping him. He's, he's, you know, giving messages and such, but our, the church is to worship Jesus and whether he's there or not, or whether you're there, pastor Kathy.
[19:34] And I'm sure we're going to feel the same way, you know, and I've, I've done a lot of, um, Beth Moore Bible study. Uh, uh, uh, uh, right. And I've often said to people that I, I try hard not to worship her just because I think she's so good at what she does.
[19:48] But I have to remember she is just one human is frail. And you know, that, um, it's always gotta be about Jesus and not coming just cause somebody is a good speaker or what have you, you know, that, that you want to be there for God.
[20:05] Did you, did you see my Facebook post today? I didn't, I haven't gone. What'd you put whenever I dream about somebody, it's God's way of telling me either to pray for them or to get in touch with them.
[20:22] But last night, I don't know if I saw all of it, but I did see it last night. Last night, I felt like it was more about the message that I was getting from this dream because I dreamt that I was at a church service.
[20:37] And, um, the group that was leading the music, there was someone who was not normally part of that group up there with them. And in between songs, that person was trying to say something that that person was feeling.
[20:52] And the group just would go on to the next song and they kept going on to the next song and not letting her speak. And I felt like God was telling me, it's not about the performance.
[21:04] It's about the spirit moving. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. I saw. Something today that was about.
[21:17] The call of Christians and one of our first responsibilities is to listen. And part of where Hebrews is going is who are we listening to?
[21:32] And I know that there's a, I'm in a couple of. Pretty sizable clergy women groups. One of them is United Methodist.
[21:43] The other one's all kinds of background. And so periodically somebody will say, well, what kind of studies are you doing? What kind of studies do you recommend? And I would say about 75% of what shows up is Adam Hamilton.
[21:58] Now. Yeah. Similar to what you were saying, Kelly. Adam Hamilton is a prolific writer and there's a lot of appeal in some of the studies and things that he's done, but he's just a man.
[22:15] Right. Happens to be a great researcher and a great writer. And I like his studies. They often come with a DVD and a book. And if you read the book, you don't need the DVD because he just kind of does what's in the book.
[22:32] But people just gravitate towards him and his work. And I find myself wanting to ask, but who else?
[22:43] Who are we not listening to as. Is it just my published their first book or whatever I.
[23:00] Writer there and there are others that we can talk about. And I, I'm always interested in who's, who's somebody new or different.
[23:13] Yeah. That brings the same intellect and the same skills to the, to the work, but is looking through a different from a, through a different lens. Um, and mostly I just look because I don't find a lot.
[23:26] Um, I listen and then I go Google things and look at them on Amazon and find that, uh, there are lots and lots of good things out there. There's no question, but it's not necessarily something.
[23:41] Um, I don't find it easy to find things that just kind of jump out. Yeah. Me in terms of, of some of this kind of a stuff, kind of stuff.
[23:52] And so one of the things that, um, the, the one, this one person who writes about this particular passage says, it's called Hebrews as God's communication.
[24:09] Hebrews can seem alien and confusing to the modern reader. Although older Bible translations call it the epistle of Paul to the Hebrews. It's quite unlike Paul's other letters.
[24:21] Nobody knows who wrote it, whoever it was educated cultured person who had meditated long and deeply on the Jewish scriptures. He was also trained in rhetoric and influenced by contemporary intellectual currents, especially by Plato's idea that the world we live in is only a shadowy imperfect copy of ultimate reality.
[24:44] Hebrews is so attuned to the dominant Greek culture that it even quotes from the Greek translation of the Old Testament. Used mostly by Jews outside of Palestine.
[24:57] Instead of the original Hebrew. Most of what we know about the Old Testament we find is in Hebrew. And that's what, if you're going to study the Old Testament, you learn Hebrew.
[25:08] If you're going to study the New Testament, you learn Greek. So to hear about Greek, you know, that that this person who wrote this wrote it attuned to the Greek culture in the Old Testament and the Greek translation.
[25:26] And instead of the Hebrew original. Yet it often reads like a Jewish midrash, which is like a commentary on current reality. Clearly, like people today, this writer and his audience were immersed in a stew of interacting and sometimes contradictory influences.
[25:44] Hebrews demonstrates that God speaks through and to the assumptions and experiences of every age. The book also shows that we, too, need to interpret our faith in light of our own time, as well as in the light of the long history of God's work.
[26:02] And I think that's kind of what we're trying to get to is what is in this that both speaks to my story and speaks to my ministry.
[26:13] Who am I listening to? And am I sometimes searching around like I was describing me looking at different studies, not just now, but at any time?
[26:28] What what am I looking for? Why do I keep searching? If you've led Bible studies, you kind of know how that goes and get carried away and get so frustrated and overwhelmed that you're like, I don't know. And then back to here we go to our Bibles to try to see what does this mean?
[26:54] And so it's I don't know what it looks like in your Bibles, but from after verse five. There's after all when God did when God when did God ever say to any of the angels and then from there down to through verse 12.
[27:15] It's in italics. Yeah. Yeah. Is yours like that? Mine's quotes. Oh, is it quotes? It's in quotes. What about yours, Kelly? Is it quotes? It's in quotes and kind of set apart like the typesetting is indented.
[27:28] Right. That's how mine is too. Yeah. Then it's in italics. And so I think that, well, let me ask you why. Oh, turn that back on. Can you see it?
[27:40] Yeah. Yeah, I can. And this is the Bible is you, Linda. Oh, the life application Bible. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. NIV version.
[27:51] Yep. So what does that? What do your boxes have to tell you in your life application Bible about Hebrews? Yeah. Do you have boxes? I always, when my son first got his first teen Bible and he was being confirmed in what was Matt's church at the time, but I was sitting there with him.
[28:13] And while Matt was doing something else, we're reading all the boxes. Yeah. The study boxes because they're so inspiring. Right. It's at the bottom of the pages.
[28:24] Okay. And what I love about this is it tries to bring it into today, how it relates to us. Go ahead, Kelly. And it's, it's interesting. Like that has vital statistics at the beginning of each book too. And it says, I'm sorry, that's my phone and I don't know how to turn it off.
[28:47] It's okay. As long as we know what it is. It talks about the original audience. And it says they may have been considering a return to Judaism, perhaps due to the persecution of Christians.
[29:02] And then it talks about mega themes that Christ is superior. He's the high priest. He made the sacrifice. And then it talks about maturity, faith, and endurance.
[29:16] Um, and it does have a box about Christ and the angels that matches the Hebrews reference with the Old Testament reference. All of them, it looks like in some. Right. That's what, um, I have that as well.
[29:30] I'm just trying to think where did I put it. Um, but it does look like most of them, because I have this, this chart. Uh huh.
[29:41] And every verse it's Psalm. Um, Psalm, Psalm, Deuteronomy, Psalm, Psalm. I, I also heard once that in the Old Testament, when the writer refers to an angel of God, they're talking about an angel.
[30:00] But when it says the angel of God, they're referring to Jesus. Hmm. Hmm. So it, it, I thought that was, and when I went back and the few verses that I've read in the Old Testament, since I heard that it seemed to fit.
[30:20] Hmm. Hmm. So what you're saying is that if we read in the Old Testament about the angel of God, that's Jesus. Yes. That's when God sent Jesus down.
[30:32] Hmm. But if it was an angel of God, it was either Gabriel or one of his other angels. Interesting. And I wonder how that might vary between translations.
[30:47] You know, how to sort that out. Right. Or, you know, and it would take you, it'd be a good thing to look at. It would take some time to go through and find all of that. I think it was David Jeremiah that had said it.
[31:00] Hmm. Another really interesting thing that one of my little boxes says is that the audience of first century Jewish Christians had developed an unbalanced belief in angels and their role.
[31:15] And do you know why that was why they, they thought angels were so important? Well, can you, I don't know if you remember, I'm going to say, I don't know, 20, 20 years ago or so, there was just angels were everywhere.
[31:32] Yes. Everywhere. Yes. In fact, somebody, it was one of those things where I admired an angel. So then it was decided among my congregation that I was collecting angels.
[31:45] So then I, I received a lot of angels. And some of them had scripture on them. They were lovely. And I certainly didn't mind having them. But there was a time when it felt like we went back to that, that people were, there was a lot of language around having an angel on your shoulder.
[32:08] There were pins, there were all kinds of things that, um, all I can say is that I think it has to do with how story unfolds and the language that people use.
[32:22] Um, a little angel told me, or, you know, an angel was watching over a loved one. Those are beautiful image. There's nothing wrong with them as long as they're balanced.
[32:34] Right. Well, the very first time I did a pulpit fill, um, it was at Clarence Center, United Methodist, obviously.
[32:47] Um, and after church, when I was greeting everybody, um, one of the congregants said, I have second sight.
[32:58] He said, I can see angels. He said, there was an angel standing with you the whole time this morning. How did that feel? Um, humbling.
[33:09] And awesome at the same time. That's, um, it's, so I think that whether it's historic, I mean, when we think about the, most of the angels that we sort of glamorize.
[33:27] Glamorize in scripture. They're the ones that are largely bringing good news. Right. They are the ones who are helping to tell what's going to happen and telling people, don't be afraid.
[33:39] It's going to be okay. Um, and then certainly if you study angels and especially in the old Testament, it's not limited to that because of the armies of angels and other kinds of images.
[33:52] But isn't that, isn't that, doesn't that correlate with how we read the old Testament? Yeah. Because people were, there was a lot of a, a more militaristic view and participation as people of faith.
[34:10] You know, the people of God fought the armies against each other. And so the, and then when you shift into the beginning of Matthew and you start to hear about Jesus, then these angels are different.
[34:27] These are angels that are. It's. Well, let me be, maybe compare it to, we talk about who wrestled with Jacob in the riverbed.
[34:38] Oh, we think it's, it's called a man, an unnamed man, an angel. Some people interpret it as him wrestling with God. That's a pretty aggressive presentation of a messenger.
[34:51] Right. Next to Mary, don't be afraid. You know, that God will come upon you. And you know, of course that's, don't be afraid, but meanwhile, be terrified.
[35:02] Right. But, and so I think that there are, I think we tend to romanticize angels. Yeah.
[35:13] And like I said, I don't think there's anything bad about that, but I have, I have a, a person I know who she'll go to a medium.
[35:25] She goes to church. She does Bible studies. She does all kinds of stuff, but it's kind of a little bit of everything. I'm pretty, I think I can probably say without a doubt that Christianity is first and foremost in how she looks at all of those.
[35:43] So I think she feels like I'm going to learn from all of them, but Christianity is my center. Right. Yeah. I know someone like that. I don't have any sense as to what I would go to a medium for.
[35:58] So. I, about, probably six or seven years ago, I had started watching that show Long Island Medium. And a friend of mine kind of put me in my place and quoted, you know, the scripture.
[36:14] I don't know where it is now. I'd have to look it up, but that talked about like, don't go to mediums or, you know, don't use that. And I, I realized that for myself, I, I watched it cause it just kind of like affirmed for me that, that there is a God or that things are, you know, have a plan and all those things.
[36:35] And I thought that's ridiculous that I need to watch that. I know there is a God and I know what I know and what I believe and salvation. And so I have to like every once in a while, I'll go buy it on the cable channel and I'll be like, don't even look at it.
[36:50] Don't look. It's like temptation. And I think that it's different if we look at something like that as just entertainment. Right. I've never seen it, but I think that's where this friend and then that medium came to someplace and she went to see her.
[37:05] Oh yeah. Yeah. But it's, I think that there's nothing wrong with learning from a lot of other, it's like people who read horoscopes. Right.
[37:16] They put their trust in what they read in the newspaper. And I can remember a million years ago when I was a teenager, I would read, it was in the paper, in the newspaper.
[37:27] Yeah. And I would read my horoscope. I never really took it all that seriously, but I was curious. Right. I just don't care. I'll tell you a little bit about it. I know there. Well, kind of similar to what Kelly was saying.
[37:41] We always liked watching ghost hunters. We always got a kick out of that. And then there's also one called ghost adventures. I stopped watching ghost adventures when he started calling out demons.
[37:53] And it's like, I don't care if it's part of the show. I don't care if it's scripted. You're messing with fire there when you're calling out demons in Jesus's name.
[38:04] And that's I'm like, you know what, when I'm in the house, I don't want that show on. Ghost hunters fine, you know, they're trying to help people that are scared in their homes. And it's fun to just watch and see them disprove things.
[38:17] But, you know, when this other group started calling out demons, it's like, no, I'm done with that. Yeah, it's we just have so many polls on our attention as to who to listen to and what to listen to.
[38:34] And even people who trust the scriptures for the foundation of who they are and what they believe can sometimes be many famous theologians are tortured.
[38:47] I mean, they live in the scriptures, they live in theology, but they're tortured by all the questions that they have. The why. Why is it this way? What does it mean? Why does it say that? Why does it say that here and this over here?
[39:01] Some people might just say, oh, that's interesting that that says that this way here and this way here. I wonder why. But some theologians and some biblical scholars who partner as being theologians are tortured by it.
[39:17] Yeah, I think they lay awake at night trying to figure all the answers out. And I think part of what Hebrews is saying is here's the truth. It's right here.
[39:28] It's right here. And that we could if you think about it, what could we if if in Hebrews they put the author puts angels. In terms of comparing Jesus to angels.
[39:42] What might we what might we in our modern era compare. To don't mistake this. This is the answer, because even though angels have had these kind of waves of popularity.
[40:00] Mm hmm. It's that's what it is. It's it's not generally. So what about everyday people? What are the the things that may be related to faith?
[40:11] Because the angels are not bad. The angels are in the scriptures. So in our faith life and in our presence in this world, what are the things that we might kind of think, oh, you know, this is just as important and forget that Jesus.
[40:31] Jesus is really what God that's who God says was most important. Right. I'm not sure even I can come up with a quick answer to that question, but I'm just curious.
[40:43] It always makes me think of. You know, friends of mine that I have that are Catholic, that I I've done Bible studies where it's been in a very ecumenical group of people with Catholics and just their whole belief system around.
[41:01] Saints and who to pray and all those things. And if you're going to I can't remember what they say, but if you're going to sell a house, there's somebody to pray to. Yeah. If you lose something. I have a friend who's United Methodist and she she prays to a certain saint when something's lost and she's not Catholic and never has been.
[41:20] Right. Right. You know, and and my husband, Dan, has really experienced it because he went to a Catholic university, but he grew up Baptist. So he went to St. Bonaventure. And so he's got a lot of he has seen both sides of it, you know, and and I because I always say to him, it's so similar and it's very and it really is.
[41:43] It's obviously it's Christ at the center, but they really do have different, you know, a different belief about who you can pray to and all those things. My dad has a group of older gentlemen that meet for breakfast and different days and a couple of them.
[41:58] My dad asked if they could if he could pray for somebody and and they seemed like really surprised. They were they're Catholic and they they just thought it was odd that he could like talk directly to God and and ask for somebody's healing, you know, and and that was hard for him to believe that they they couldn't, you know, that they didn't.
[42:18] Yeah, that it was. And I don't know if they're if they're 100 percent right in their theology, but they feel like that the priest has to be the one to say, a prayer over you. Right. And that is I've I have I never really felt any sense of the Catholic Church not being Christian because it is Christian.
[42:43] I mean, they wear Christ right on there on themselves. And. But I never really understood the the need or the desire to pray to anybody else but God.
[42:56] Right. Right. And I have some very close family members who are Catholic, born again, slain in the spirit, the whole nine yards. But they are Roman Catholic and they they they were part of their ministry was pursuing this one woman being sainted.
[43:16] Now, I couldn't even tell you the name of this person right now, who was ultimately say sainted, but there was this. It was a saint that was about ministry to the poor and.
[43:30] So Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa. No, no, it's a modern, it's a mother. It's a more modern, not modern era, but a person who's been officially sainted in the Catholic Church, probably in the last 15 years.
[43:46] And the saint is very sound has a lot of beliefs that are very similar, led a life of poverty and service and helping the poor and the ministry that they have built around this, which is to some of some parts of that are right here in Buffalo.
[44:06] And I'm not sure it's still open, but it used to be St. Luke's downtown in the city and very Christ centered. But this this saint was a big part of this family members pursuit.
[44:22] And I just. Honor it, but don't understand it. Mm hmm. Somebody said, explained it to me once, whether it's true or not, I don't know, but somebody explained it once that.
[44:36] Like. When you're praying to a saint, you're asking that saint to approach God and pray for you. So it's no different than me saying Kelly or Pastor Kathy, would you pray for me?
[44:51] Right. Hmm. And it goes back to what Kelly said about the you tell the priest and the priest prays for you. Yeah. Right.
[45:02] And what. I don't think even Protestants realize and I'm sorry, the lights getting kind of funky in here. I don't. I'm not practice any of any of my glamour zoom skills because I'm supposed to have a light over here.
[45:18] I'm not supposed to have any shadows. But I think we're great. Yeah. We're actually just moving into this evenings are now dark. And so. Right. This out.
[45:29] But. I think that Protestants were kind of birthed out of the Catholic Church, which we were. Right. And part of that was direct access to God.
[45:42] Yeah. Direct access to scriptures because for generations Roman Catholics didn't read the Bible. Right. That wasn't encouraged because the priest was to interpret the scriptures to the parishioners.
[45:56] And that's evolved. That's changed. There are now Bible studies and all of that in the Catholic Church. There are classes that train you not only in the catechism, but in the Bible.
[46:09] But in some ways, didn't we have it so much easier that we grew up with this thing that, well, you just talk to God. Yeah. You don't need anybody else in the room.
[46:20] By the curtain door. That's right. And I'm glad I don't have to pray through a curtain to tell somebody, you know, what my mistakes are. God's got it. Right.
[46:31] So, well, let's let's go on to Hebrews 2. And I'm wondering how, because I would I would like to listen to you read this.
[46:45] And I'm wondering, there are how many verses here? Nine. Is it nine? Eighteen, I think. Chapter two.
[46:56] Oh, I stopped at a paragraph. Eighteen. Okay. So there's 18. So how about each of you read nine? You want to start, Kelly? Sure. From one to nine. Yep.
[47:07] Mine. Chapter two has the heading warning to pay attention. Oh, which I think is interesting. Okay. Um, we must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard so that we do not drift away.
[47:25] For since the message spoken through angels was binding and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?
[47:40] This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by sign, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
[47:58] It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. But there is a place where someone has testified.
[48:09] And then this is in quotes. What is mankind that you are mindful of them? A son of man that you care for him. You made them a little lower than the angels.
[48:21] You crowned them with glory and honor and put everything under their feet. In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them.
[48:33] Yet at present, we do not see everything subject to them. But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God, he might taste death for everyone.
[48:54] In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
[49:10] Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
[49:23] He says, I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters. In the assembly, I will sing your praises. And again, I will put my trust in him.
[49:37] And again, he says, here I am. The children God has given me. Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity.
[49:50] So that by his death, he might break the power of him who holds the power of death. That is the devil. And free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
[50:06] For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason, he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God.
[50:27] And that he might make an atonement for the sins of the people. And that he might be able to help those who are being tempted. He is able to help those who are being tempted.
[50:40] I love that verse. The last one. Yeah. Yeah. He is able to help those who are being tempted since he himself experienced suffering.
[50:51] Yeah. Yeah. He knows what it is. Yeah. So what do you think of this, this chapter in terms of if we take it as a, the first chapter is a jumping off place in terms of.
[51:04] If the purpose of it is listen to God and know that Jesus is the savior. The first chapter tells us that even though there were angels, this is how Jesus was different from the angels.
[51:21] This is why Jesus is much more superior. It doesn't, he doesn't say Jesus being a part of God, not specifically, but that's what he's saying. Or I'm assuming it's he, but because I don't know if women preached back then, but I think it's interesting that you heard that a woman wrote it.
[51:39] So what about chapter two? What's the key? What do you think the key takeaway is here? I'm cheating a little bit because there's a header.
[51:55] Oh, you said something about being afraid or what was it? Well, you know, I didn't read the other header. The first one said warning to pay attention.
[52:06] But then after those verses, it said Jesus made fully human. Oh, and I think that's what it is. I think so. I think so. My, my, the headers on mine, listen to the son's message.
[52:21] And then Jesus is the enthroned human being, which is what we're talking about. And then the last section qualified to be a high priest. Oh yeah. Yeah.
[52:32] I find it. It's a beautiful description of the humanity of God through Jesus, the humanity of Jesus, as God sent him in terms of the, the, the verse 12.
[52:53] I will publicly announce your name to my brothers and sisters. I will praise you in the middle of the assembly. I will rely on him. And also here I am with the children whom God has given me.
[53:04] Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he shared the same things in the same way and did this to destroy the devil. The devil. Yeah.
[53:15] I don't know. Gospel message. It is. It's like, there it is. It is interesting that I don't know. I think if we talk about, um, he did this to destroy the one who holds the power over death, the devil by dying.
[53:34] Do what do your beliefs tell you about? Was the, was the devil permanently defeated? I mean, yes, Jesus triumphed.
[53:46] There's no question because we have life over death, but did that mean that evil went away? No, not yet. Yeah. That's the final battle. That's true. Yeah.
[53:57] I just, it feels like the words are power over death. He destroyed. Um, but what he did was he destroyed the devil's power over death, that death was the final answer.
[54:10] Because in the Jewish faith, death is the end. That's, that's where it ends. Um, and obviously that's not a part of our story.
[54:22] Um, so it's, but it's an interesting, this is a, I find it an, uh, an excellent sense of merging the human and the divine.
[54:35] Um, in terms of why Jesus came and why he needed to be human so that he could, uh, that that way he could more, um, not only represent humanity in his death, but also heal humanity in his resurrection.
[54:53] And so, you know, as opposed to, you know, you think about, um, I don't know why this movie comes to mind, but you think about the little mermaid and you have Ursula who becomes big, she's big and she's huge.
[55:07] And then so does the other guy. Um, the, the little mermaid's father, Titan. Oh, yeah. And so Jesus, if Jesus would have powered through the, the times that he did like that, how would people relate to him?
[55:29] Right. Right. People see their story in him. Um, yeah. And I, I think that God knows what we're going through, but in order for him to really know is why he had to send Jesus.
[55:44] So that he could completely understand too. Not that I don't think God understands, but kind of like, I can't understand what the two of you.
[55:58] I think that people think that God sees them the way they think that other humans see them. And they're even more telling. It's the way they see themselves.
[56:09] Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That. When we think about this chapter. About. What it says around Jesus.
[56:25] Coming to be one with us. To have flesh and blood like children have. I mean, they specifically talks about children. To have flesh and blood like children among us.
[56:36] Mm-hmm. And that, that, that makes us, he calls brothers, the language used in mine in 12 brothers and sisters. Mm-hmm.
[56:47] There's a familial language about it. That's very affectionate. And if Jesus, we've talked about this some, in some other places that the church.
[57:02] About that the day that we truly believe. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love yourself. As God loves you. And we often throw that part away.
[57:14] Mm-hmm. Or we. Oh yeah, I know. I know. Um. And yet sometimes the way we live doesn't really demonstrate that because we, we have insecurities.
[57:27] Cause we're human. We're, we don't have it all figured out. But in our insecurities, we sometimes forget that, that love that God loves us as this much.
[57:41] This much is what it says right here. Mm-hmm. That Jesus would become human and suffer the human indignity of persecution, um, and punishment and ultimately death.
[57:54] And even before death, one of the big things is betrayal. Um, and he did that for us. And we sometimes treat ourselves as though we're unworthy.
[58:09] Yeah. Or think of ourselves. Does that make sense? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. That if the whole world could be blanketed with the Holy Spirit.
[58:20] This was my prayer at staff spiritual formation today. That the whole world would be blanketed with the Holy Spirit so that if people truly felt loved and honored and respected, then this would stop.
[58:34] Mm-hmm. This would, this would stop pitting brother against brother and sister against sister and family against family and all that's going on in our, um, in our country and across the world.
[58:48] Mm-hmm. Yeah. That really makes me sad. Yeah. And so then we can say our hope is ultimately in Christ and it is, but where's our hope in everyday life?
[59:07] How is it that when we read this, don't prioritize this over what God has to say to you? And do you make things, don't make angels or other aspects more important than what God has to say?
[59:23] And remember that Jesus is the one. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of reassurance in that, but how do we integrate that into yours and my everyday life when we encounter the people that are angry?
[59:37] Angry about the, the state of the world, angry about injustice, angry about the way justice looks, angry about who's president or who's going to be president, angry about the rules for church, angry about the things that are, were being denied.
[59:59] Um, and in some ways angry about what we're afraid of. Um, that I see a lot of people showing anger that comes out of, they're afraid they'll never have what they used to have.
[60:14] They're afraid that there's no, that nothing's, that they're, that they're going to have to create a new reality. And that is really frightening to people. Mm-hmm.
[60:25] Yeah. So it comes out sometimes as anger. It's not, that's not where it comes from, but it comes out that way sometimes. Mm-hmm. So how do we, how do you keep finding hope every day to be about being people of faith, people of hope?
[60:47] What do you do with your discouragement? I try to look at people, especially when I'm really, when I'm angry with them or I can't relate to them, or I've even done this in, in my professional life.
[61:01] You know, when I'm sitting around a conference room table and there's people that I just disagree with or what have you, I try to step back and, and think, how does God see that person?
[61:13] You know, we always think about like, how does God see us, but how is, how is God looking down right now? And they can, he and he, you know, all three of them, the triune God can see that person's real heart and can see if they're hurting so bad that that's why they're abusive to their employees or they're, you know, miserable to be around or, you know, all of those things.
[61:37] And it, it, it helps a little bit to just think like, okay, God loves that person too. You know, even, even though they are perhaps not a Christian at all, God's still hoping that they'll become one and that they'll, you know, get that relationship with him.
[61:53] And so when I'm, I don't, I don't always do it, but when I'm having a good day, I'll do that. And try, and try to relate to them and, and think, you know, God loves them too.
[62:05] Right. Mm-hmm. I just try to remind, remind myself of God's sovereignty. Mm-hmm. That God knows what he's going to be doing with this situation.
[62:18] Mm-hmm. And God knows the reason that he's allowing situations to occur, leaders to be put in place, leaders to be dethroned.
[62:31] And I have to trust his plan. Yeah. And I think a lot, he's gotta be looking down on us just thinking, oh, I can't, I just can't believe it.
[62:43] I know. I, I, I picture God being the same way that I feel sometimes when I'm inundated with the news. Right. Yes. I imagine God being like, I just can't look.
[62:56] Right. Yeah. I can't look. What are they doing now? And, and it's our story. We have lived this before in our history. Yeah. It's written through the scriptures.
[63:08] Yeah. We have abandoned faith and chaos and turmoil has come around and then we rediscover. And it's just that this seems to be a little bit worse of a chapter than most of us have experienced.
[63:23] There was a video that I was reminded of in preparing for preaching this past Sunday at Niagara Falls that is, it could be considered a bit of a companion to the Matthew West video.
[63:40] Oh yeah. And, and maybe you've even seen it. It's a video of a man who's going to work and he's frustrated because a kid drives his bike across the driveway.
[63:51] So he has to stop and wait and he's like, ah, and then he goes to a coffee shop and someone steps in front of him and then someone shoves in the line. And then when he gets up to the place, his order, somebody steps in and he's getting all mad.
[64:06] He's just so put out about all of this and he gets his coffee and he goes to sit down and somebody takes the seat. It's just like a bad morning. Yeah. And while he's sitting this, have you seen this Kelly?
[64:19] No, I'm just with you. While he's sitting there, this man who looks like, uh, one of the, well, I don't know if it's a particular, what actor it is, but he has, he's, he's reminiscent of some of the, the black men that have been God.
[64:36] Oh yeah. Hands this man, a pair of glass case. And when he opens the, I can't remember what it says when he opens it. So he takes off his glasses and he puts them on.
[64:50] And as he looks around at the person who stepped in front of him, at the person who bumped up against him, he begins to see, um, their story.
[65:02] And like on the video, it has a little ticker tape thing that goes across, um, the lost, lost, lost their, lost his job and is the sole supporter of his family.
[65:15] Um, her husband walked out after a big fight last night and hasn't come back. Uh, this one doesn't know what their life is even about. And they're wondering what their purpose is.
[65:27] And then when he goes back to his house, the kid comes again. And at first he starts to be impatient and then he looks at him and the thing says, is in desperate need of a male, an adult male who cares about a dad figure.
[65:44] Wow. And wow. That can be correlated to Jim Carrey taking all the prayer requests in that movie where like just saying yes, yes, yes, yes, because he can't handle all the things that are coming.
[66:00] And then chaos. When we're inundated with knowing people's stories, then we become overwhelmed just like we are now. But when we can, like you're describing Kelly, um, that even when someone is unkind to us or we're witness to them being unkind to another person, maybe the question to ask is, I wonder what's going on in their life.
[66:26] I wonder what happened. Maybe it's that person, you know, that person well enough that they're always that way. And maybe you wonder at what, what made them become so bitter and angry.
[66:38] I wonder what that story is about. Um, with people who are only occasionally like that, we can wonder what's happened. Cause we often wonder what we did, what we said.
[66:52] And, um, wisdom has taught me over the years that 95% of the time, and it's nothing to do with us. And it is something else. There's something else going on. Mm-hmm .
[67:04] So I think that we are reminded in this passage, Jesus is the enthroned human being.
[67:16] Um, and what is humanity that you think about them? That's us. Mm-hmm . That, that God even thinks of us.
[67:27] And when we, when we move on to the next chapters, we're going to be talking about, um, chapter three is called, We Are Jesus' House, in mine.
[67:40] Mm-hmm . What does yours say? Christ is greater than Moses. That's your, that's your chapter heading for three? Yup . And then four, mine says, enter the rest.
[67:51] Yeah. A Sabbath rest for the people of God. Mm-hmm . Something to look forward to. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll do, we'll do those, um, next week.
[68:03] And if you, if questions or you're curious about something, or if you discover something, and, and, you know, you feel yourself inclined to look up things about Hebrews, please do bring it to, um, to our time together.
[68:19] And I hope that, uh, that we can be together again next week. Yeah. This is great. How many people are you, um, how many can it hold? Do you know?
[68:30] We, it can hold as many as we decide. I think that Adrian has it set to be, um, 15 as the maximum. Okay.
[68:41] Um, because of the feeling that there's can be chaos. Yeah. However, we have what we have on the screen. Right. And then we have what people are watching, which is hard for, you know, it's like, I can't have two things.
[68:54] I've watched all of us try to watch what's going on in the comments while we're actually talking in Facebook live and things like that. And it's very challenging. Yeah.
[69:05] That's. I suggested for when pastor Scott and Scott James and I start whatever we're going to be doing. I suggested that we have one person leading while the other one is keeping an eye on what's going on in comments and such.
[69:24] So kind of have a co-leadership there. Because Adrian was saying, he was talking about the ability to see what's going on, how people are engaging, um, from another angle while this is happening.
[69:40] And I think he could tell that I was like, wait, wait, how are we going to navigate that? But the reality is, is that it wouldn't be hard to have another monitor here with my other laptop hooked up to one of those.
[69:54] I just need a bigger table. Don't we all. Don't we all. But I don't, uh, but I'm, I'm excited. I'm so excited to have conversational Bible study.
[70:05] Yes. Instead of talking Bible study, just me talking. Um, so. Yeah. I love conversational ones. Yeah. Yeah. I learned from you and we learned from each other.
[70:18] Right. Um, yeah, this has been great. There's a, and there's a couple of people that I want to encourage to, to come join us that, that I think. Yeah. Don't be discouraged that there were only a couple of us that signed up because they, I just happened to see it quickly the other day.
[70:34] And I was like, Oh, I want to sign up quick and be one of the first, but I think we just need to, people need to know that it's happening. Right. And I think we, we had been, um, after the, the summer and doing the, the Psalms, there was a, um, okay.
[70:53] We have to decide what to do and then decide because we wanted it because I wanted it interactional. What kind of platform do we use? And one of the advantages to this platform is the fact that it will now be recorded and that people can watch me fumble around and us get our sound all together.
[71:12] Yay. They will also be able to see the conversation, hear the scripture and hopefully benefit from that in some way.
[71:24] So great. Well, God be with you this night. Yeah. Well, and that tomorrow is a great brand new day. That's right. Thank you.
[71:35] You also. This was wonderful. Wonderful. Go in peace. Okay. Good night. God bless. Good night.
[71:55] Oh no. Good night. It's fine.
[72:19] The great book is towards us andar時間.