[0:00] So there's a couple of things that we're going to we're going to spend our time mostly in Hebrews 12. And they as much as I would have liked to have said where we're going next, the resources that I ordered did not arrive yet.
[0:18] So just stay posted. OK, stay in and we'll find out because I ordered not just one thing from the conference resource center.
[0:29] So that means I get to pick, but I don't pick until I see them. So I want to I'm going to I'm going to read you a little piece of a story and then we're going to go to Hebrews.
[0:46] And this this person writes, when I was in high school music, the band leader insisted that his students drill scales, major scales, minor scales, chromatic scales all the ways around all the way around the circle of fifths.
[1:02] This is a foreign language to me. We had to be able to play them all fast and accurately. Sitting in my other classes, any time I wasn't actively taking notes, I'd hold my pen as if it were my instrument and practice my scales.
[1:18] I haven't picked up a saxophone in over 20 years, but to this day I can play those scales with a pen. What my band master knew was that training our fingers on the scales around which music is built would prepare us to pick up even a difficult piece and learn to play it well.
[1:36] In the same way, cross country runners do wind sprints, short all out dashes repeated over and over until the legs and lungs plead for mercy as a way of building capacity capacity for long distance runs.
[1:50] Whether you're training for the Olympics or helping your child learn to read, you know that working hard at the basic basics is what lays the foundation for long term success.
[2:01] Can you relate to that? I was a music student, so I don't know about the scales. Do you, Kelly? I do, and I'm the saxophone player. I was more of a singer, but I played the saxophone and it's been about 30 years probably.
[2:21] I've seen musicians do that. You can watch them with their pen. But did you have to learn all those scales? Yeah. Circle of fifths? Yeah. Absolutely.
[2:34] So, and Linda, if it wasn't music or cross country running, was there anything that you did that you learned in a repetitive way?
[2:48] I took piano. Okay. And I was in chorus in school and under Kelly's expert tutelage in the choir. She's an awesome choir director.
[3:01] I have fun with it. So, what is to be, what are some of the things in our everyday life that we could do or might do repeatedly that kind of help us maintain our mental, physical, spiritual health?
[3:27] I didn't ask you if you were doing them all. I'm just asking if you know what they are. Yeah. Uh huh. What would you say? Getting exercise regularly is always, I always feel better. I unfortunately don't always make time, but when I do, I'm happier for it.
[3:46] Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And making time to, me or you? I don't know what it was. I think we've had that happen once before and I don't know what it is. So.
[4:00] It's actually me. I'm sorry. It comes through on my computer. I'll try to. I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry about that. Anyway, for spiritual, making time to spend with God every day, whether it's just five minutes praying and ten minutes in your Bible or reading your devotion every day.
[4:25] Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And I also like to do those, um, coloring books, the adult coloring books. Mm hmm. And I do a lot of the faith based ones. Mm hmm.
[4:38] Mm hmm. I, I like those as well. And I like, uh, when I went to general conference in 2016, I did a lot of that because it was, um, that, that some of that repetitive activity kept me actually kept me focused on my on what was going on, but also gave me some soothing stuff to deal with all the stuff that was going on.
[5:00] Well, if I go to general conference, take my coloring books, right? That's right. Okay. And take them in a box that you can use as a, uh, to put on your lap so that you can color if you're, if you're, cause as an alternate, which is what I was, you might be in the bleachers.
[5:15] Right. Okay. So, um, and the, and I think that there, some of the things like we do, like I set up my coffee maker every night because I, I really like having the coffee ready for me when I get up in the morning.
[5:33] Um, and that's a repetitive thing. That's good for me in some ways. Um, I think that I aspire to do many things on a repeated basis that are good for me.
[5:46] I don't, I don't do them all. Um, but when we, in looking at, looking back at Hebrews, um, they, what would you, how would you summarize what we've learned about Hebrews?
[6:08] Um, and my screen reader says, um, that is, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. I, I think the main thing that I have taken away thus far has, is just don't give up.
[6:23] thus far is just don't give up. Keep plugging. Keep on keeping on. Yeah. And that so many have done it before you. I think that's just a human nature thing to know that others have done this and that you are following in their footsteps. You're not the first to do this. You can do it.
[6:45] It gives you a lot of motivation to stick with it, I think. And I believe it's written for those who were formerly Jews that had become Christians and trying to discourage them from falling away from their Christianity.
[7:01] Right. And I think that was a big, that was, to understand the breadth of that was a different thing for me in Hebrews. Because it's when you read it through the lens of it being a concentrated effort to kind of bring Christianity down to this little intense book or letter, sermon, whatever we want to call it. And to understand its pointed purpose helped me to understand why, why it's written the way it is and kind of what the, what they're trying to accomplish.
[7:44] And it's, I was talking about it in our staff spiritual formation class. And I was, we were talking, group, we were talking, I said, we were reading through the chapter 11 and I asked them, you know, why do you suppose, why do you suppose that all these names were listed? And of course, Scott being, I said, Oh, Scott, you're such a pastor. Because he said, you know, well, those were familiar names to them and they would be inspiring to him, to the people. And they all were examples of faith without sight. So it was, it was, it was good. So when we look at 12.
[8:32] Before you leave 11, what you just said, I don't think had really something to me before that they, the people named were all those who had faith without sight. It wasn't like the disciples who were with Jesus for three years. Right. And for all those who, these are all Old Testament heroes who would have never encountered Jesus. And when you think about the, I mean, if you, if you look at Noah, Noah said, Noah said yes to something he had no idea about. He said yes, before he built the ark, he said yes, before the rain, he said yes, before he realized that everything else was going to be destroyed and that he was carrying the entirety of the human race on this ark. So that faith without the definition of believing without seeing is an important part of that. And you look at they, so many of these that, that they were, they were told something, but they didn't yet see it. You know, Abraham and Sarah were told they would have a child.
[9:51] They were so, so about believing it, but they believed, um, and it happened. And one of the things that, uh, when we were talking about it this afternoon, talking about the fact that some of the new Testament examples of that, that one of the most powerful, one of those is Mary.
[10:12] You think about that. She was asked, uh, what that she was asked to carry Jesus and she wasn't married.
[10:22] She was very young, but she was old enough to know the consequences of a woman potentially having a child without a husband. Um, so that's, yeah, that's, Mary's not listed in here because they didn't know who Mary was the, the, these, the people, the Hebrew people, no, the people that are being addressed, um, are people that would have heard stories about Mary, but they wouldn't have understood the importance of what she had done just yet. Um, so there was, so that was part of, you know, all, and the very, very end of 11, all these people didn't receive what was promised though. They were given approval for their faith.
[11:12] God provided something better for us so that we wouldn't be made perfect. They wouldn't be made perfect without us. Um, and so that sense of these people that answered a call, went someplace, did something, achieved something, saved something. Um, we're all acting on faith. The, the Hebrews definition of faith, um, in terms of believing in that, which we cannot see. All right. So in 12, um, can somebody read one and two verses one and two? Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles and let us run with perseverance, the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and the perfecter of faith for the joy set before him. We, he endured the cross, spawning its shame and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. This does your, you have the guys have the same version, don't you? Yeah. Yeah.
[12:40] And I also have the message in front of me. How does that read? Um, verses one and two reads.
[12:52] Do you see what this means? All these pioneers who blazed the way, all these veterans cheering us on.
[13:05] It means we better get on with it. Strip down, start running and never quit. No extra spiritual fat, no parasitic sins. Keep your eyes on Jesus who both began and finished this race we're in.
[13:22] Study how he did it because he never lost sight of where he was headed. That exhilarating finish in and with God. He could put up with anything along the way, cross, shame, whatever. And now he's there in the place of honor right alongside God. When you find yourselves flagging in your faith, go over that story again, item by item, that long litany of hostility he plowed through.
[13:54] That will shoot adrenaline into your souls. It's, um, Um, so what is this? What are these two verses say to you in terms of your own sense of, of what they mean?
[14:13] Not mean in big, big thoughts, but mean to you personally. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I think kind of, again, just get on with it. You know, it says, throw off everything that hinders and the sin that's so easily entangled. I think it's just like, get over it, just get on with it and do what you're meant to do with perseverance. And because Jesus did it first and he did the hardest part of it. So if he can do that, the least we can do is keep running the race.
[14:53] And when you get tired, fix your eyes on Jesus. Right. Because we all do get tired. Yes, we do. Um, and Jesus rested as well. Mm hmm.
[15:04] Um, so we can fix our eyes on Jesus who went away to pray and spend time. Um, this, so the mind, mind reads, it's, it's very much the same with endurance.
[15:17] Let's also run the race that's laid out before us, since we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us. And then this, this part led, let's throw off any extra baggage, get rid of the sin that trips our eyes, that trips, that trips us up. Um, so what do we, what can we imagine is the baggage that we might throw off?
[15:43] Yeah. Holding on just anything that we're wrongfully holding onto, whether it's grudges or I think I heard somebody this week talk about it. You can't receive what God has for you when you're holding everything so much. You don't have open arms to accept all the good things he has planned for you. You've got to drop it. And, and I, you know, people always say let go and let God, but I think it's like, let go of stuff and give it to him. Don't just like drop it mid race, just, you know, at least take it to Jesus. He'll, he'll do it. He'll finish it. He'll handle it. All those things. It's not like you're, you know, letting people down or what have you. It's, you're not dropping it. You're giving it to him. And some of it's, there's a physical part of it and, um, a spiritual part of it that are, and an emotional part of it because the, I think sometimes the let go and let God is often misconstrued as just turn and just like, let it be, let it go. Just kind of, which could give somebody the impression of just walk away. Um, but I think what people, um, what people often mean by let go and let God is let go of the worry, let go of trying to control it, let go of, um, being so convicted of, must have the outcome that you think that, that you should have. Um, and I think about, um,
[17:24] I, I'm trying to think about maybe how to phrase the question of, well, what kind of baggage, what kind of baggage do us everyday ordinary people carry with us? Well, everybody struggles with something, whether it's, um, jealousy or, um, haughtiness or drinking, or we all have some, shall I, for lack of better words, character flaw. Or more than one. What did you say? Or more than one. Yeah, or more than one. That we need to shed so that we can keep running that race.
[18:11] Yeah. Yeah. And I think that we will never be somebody else. We will never be the, who will never be what we're not. Um, you know, who we are is how we were made, what we do with it, uh, I think is part of this, of this particular part about practices and how we run this race of faith, which is that you think about, we think about Paul, Paul, Paul was described as a, um, a person who had some kind of a handicap. Um, it was, there was uncertain.
[18:55] Yes. We know that he suffered great beatings and, uh, abuse and imprisonment and so many different things. But there was also, there are places where it's alluded to that he had a limp, that he, um, had difficulty with, uh, some level of endurance because of some of the physical things that he's been through. Um, he was there, some of the, um, statues and some of the icons that have paintings of Paul make him look as though he's not like disfigured, but, um, definitely not. And the impression of a a healthy, robust body. Um, and I think that we, there are things along our life journeys that may cripple us in some way. It may be by some of those character flaws. Um, we may learn unhealthy things by how we were raised or what we endured when we were, um, either growing up or as young adults, um, sometimes in difficult marriages, the things that, that we endure, um, we have to learn how to adapt. And that's not always a, that's not always helpful in the long run. It's helpful sometimes in the short, um, children who grow up with alcoholic parents or abusive parents, they learn how to cope, um, to keep themselves safe. And sometimes to keep other people in the family safe.
[20:35] Um, those coping mechanisms don't always work when they're free of those, um, burdens. And so then figuring out, well, how do I, what do I do with this? Like addictive personality or enabling personality or codependent personality? How do I kind of throw some of that off and find healing and wholeness? Well, it's a whole lot of work, you know, it's therapy and practice and all of those kinds of things. So I wonder if we think about some of those repetitive actions that, that would, that help people to run the race, that sometimes it's not, sometimes that, that the repetitive thing is being a person, being able to convince themselves, uh, that they're loved by God, that by saying things, reminding themselves of things over and over and over again. Um, and that, that, that it's not just the, the sort of big, strong, not strong physical, but people who are faithful at a young age and grow up with the scriptures and grow up in church and are healthy, well-adjusted adults. They're on a, uh, a path of discipleship that, that moves quite differently from someone who starts out with, you know, only this little tiny bit of faith. And maybe their spark is that they're hoping to find faith. And so the repetitive thing might be go to church, go to church, go to church, go to church, sometimes for years, then read the Bible, read the Bible, read the Bible, read the Bible. Um, and we often make assumptions that everybody in the church reads the Bible.
[22:35] Okay. No. And it's not because people aren't good. It's that they never learned that they were, they never developed that kind of devotion. So in some ways, if churches, if church is the only devotion they get, then bring it on, come on, you know, it's, it's okay. We'll go that we'll figure it out together.
[22:58] Um, but I think that this, what, what is trying to be taught in, in Hebrews is a counter-cultural message, meaning in a, in something like Judaism, which is very, uh, ritualized, very legalistic, lots of rules.
[23:21] Um, there's a sense of, you stay here and you do everything the same all the time, the Sabbath, the food, the, the teaching, the scripture, you know, all of that is, is a very repetitive kind of a model. And what's being talked about here is actually going someplace, not necessarily physically, but running the race of faith, meaning, wait, does that mean I'm not going to stay where I am?
[23:50] But there's someplace that there's even someplace to go. Oh, yeah. Right. There's a finish line. Right. And what do we think of as the finish line?
[24:03] Heaven, I think eternity with Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. That that's, that that's where we are. Um, and they throughout the Hebrews, we've heard the conversation about what people should do, what people should do. It's a kind of a training, um, module. And then when we go, um, starting in verse three and let's see, Kelly, why don't you read three through six? Okay.
[24:35] Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood, and have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son. It says, my son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline and do not lose heart when he rebukes you because the Lord disciplines the one he loves and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.
[25:10] It's the language. You said your last line was he chastens every son or daughter. Um, mine is a little harsher than that. It says he punishes, um, which is a little stronger, feels stronger to me than chasing. Um, and so let's see. Um, we used to tell our kids because they would say, you know, so-and-so's parents aren't going to discipline them for that. And you're too hard on us. And we would say, well, clearly their parents don't love them. We're disciplining you because we love you. And clearly they are not loved. There's a reason for it. Um, and in the, he, the five and six about, um, um, not forgetting and make light of, or be discouraged by God's discipline and this in this book, uh, which is comparing new Testament to old Testament where it comes from. Um, so it says God corrects those he loves.
[26:27] So that goes along with your parenting and the references, Proverbs 3 11 to 12 don't make light of, or be discouraged by God's discipline. God corrects those he loves, you know, the same message. I love it when we have these quotes that come from the old Testament and they're not left there. They're brought back into the new Testament to kind of remind us of the continuity of, of all of it. Um, and I do think that do you, do you have any sense in your mind of what it would feel like, or what your experience would be of being corrected by God? Do you trying to think? I felt convicted at times by, by God or the Holy Spirit, just going, no, no, no. I, and I, I have as well. I think that there are some things that are so ingrained in us in terms of right and wrong. I mean, in the Christian faith, I mean, there's, there's the rules of humanity and right and wrong. Um, but there's the places where, um, there's temptation and, you know, you just have a sense and there's a, you can almost not even be sure in my being corrected by God or am I being corrected because I know what God, or maybe it's the same thing is knowing scripture and knowing what's right and wrong based on what God teaches us. If we're tempted to do something that contradicts the, what we learn in the Bible, is that God speaking to us or has God already spoken to us and therefore we know it?
[28:23] I think the latter is, makes it even more powerful. It's like back to the analogy of disciplining kids when they can almost discipline themselves when they, when they know, you know, I know they're going to yell at me for this.
[28:36] And so it's just not worth it. I'm not going to do it. It's a bad thing. And I think we can do that ourselves with God. Um, unfortunately I think more often than not for me, that doesn't happen until after I've done it, you know, I'm like, darn, well, I blew that one. But yeah. And, and sometimes it's a while and then I'm even more mortified, you know, it might be days later that I'm like, wow, that really was, that did not make God happy. And then it's worse because I had been going along happy-go-lucky for a couple of days thinking I was, you know, doing just fine. And then I realized, and he does convict us in certain ways or even something that somebody else says, and that might be harmless on their end, but it speaks to us. Right. Yeah. It's, um, and then what kind, what does it do to our state of mind when we realize that we have sort of misstepped and we have a sense that God wouldn't really be so happy that we had done something. Yeah. I feel ashamed almost. And then you can go down a, a bad spiral with that. And sometimes then you do other things wrong just because of that shame. But, um, I think it like anything, if you can just say, okay, he does forgive. And I was thinking earlier when you talked about baggage, I think sometimes we don't forgive ourselves enough or soon enough or completely.
[30:14] We, you know, we just let it hang over our lives. We can believe fully that that God forgave us a long time ago, but it's, we hold onto that. And then that just makes it worse. You know, we feel like we're not worthy and not lovable. Right. Shame.
[30:34] Shaming from someone else is a highly destructive, um, thing and shaming ourselves is also destructive.
[30:46] We mostly learn shaming, um, by our experience. You know, we didn't, we weren't born shaming ourselves. We learn, um, in a variety of ways, everybody experiences shame. It's never, uh, one of the authors that I like a lot is Brene Brown and she writes about shame and she talks about how disabling it is that it's one of the most powerful, um, and most destructive emotions that we can feel.
[31:18] Um, and I think that love God, love yourself as your name, love your neighbor, love as you love yourself, things like that. We often, we often make, we sort of romanticize that, um, in terms of love, especially the loving yourself. And so, um, there's that place between being corrected, feeling embarrassed or ashamed that we did something and then kind of, what do we do about it?
[31:52] Um, is there something to be done about it or does it, does it go into the, the kind of list of sins that we have and we just say, we're sorry and we're forgiven? Um, it can be complicated. Yeah. Um, they, um, it's, I think that my own feeling of, and I think it's probably easiest to say that usually if there are places where I feel like I've um, failed or maybe done something that wasn't helpful, it's would be by something that I said in either in a conversation or somehow in a relationship. Um, and maybe it was said that way because I wasn't really in the right state of mind to say it in the first place. So there was a lot more in the words that came out than what were necessary. You know, when the, when we hit the last straw and we get mad and we get mad about something that's so small, but it's because of the other stuff that's going on. And, um, I, those are the kinds of mistakes that, that I probably see them more often in myself than other people do, uh, for which I'm grateful, but I find it a, a helpful process, partly because of owning up to it. Like, you know, in a relationship, being able to say, you know, that wasn't fair, but that wasn't fair, or I'm sorry that that came across that way. Um, hopefully before it gets down to the week and everybody's completely forgotten about it, except for maybe that person's carrying it around a little bit. Um, cause when it comes to doing things that, that God doesn't approve of, well, I don't hold, I don't hold my life in a sifter, um, and probably don't examine every single little thing I do and probably don't feel a lot of, I don't feel much conviction about, um, buying a cookbook. Was it the right or wrong thing to do? Do I have too many?
[34:15] Do I, you know, is a good financial decision? I really don't give it a lot of thought. So if God has an opinion on it, I don't know what it is. Um, but if I hurt somebody's feelings, that's a whole different, that's a whole different ballgame. For me, it is always the, the, what I say more than even what I do. And it's usually the people closest to me, cause that's who I trust the most and let my hair down. So to speak, you just, like you said, you just say something and it's like the toothpaste can't go back in the tube once you say it and it's so hard. Yeah, it is. I think that one of the things that, that being married a long time helped with, and this was a long time ago, was the, the realization that those things, that at some level, those things can be taken back because you're married to someone who knows you and you can, you can just own up to the fact that you were in a bad mood, you had a bad day or whatever. And, um, I mean, I know that there are probably conversations that are really off the deep end that people have that become very damaging, but that's not what, probably what any of us are thinking about. Um, so I'm going to read, um, let's see from seven to through 11. Bear hardship for the sake of discipline. God is treating you like sons and daughters. What child isn't disciplined by his or her father, but if you don't experience discipline, which happens to all children, then you are illegitimate and not real sons or daughters.
[36:01] Let's just stop right there. How does your, how, how does your, your versions read that line? Let's just stop right there. No way. Like I was thinking at least I didn't tell my kids like that their, that their friends were illegitimate. Right? Parents didn't love them. But yeah, that's so interesting that you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Wow.
[36:27] Do any of you have some helpful commentary next to that? Let's see. Um, for those verses, it pretty much just says it's grouped, um, verses five to 11 together. And it says, who loves his children more the father who allows them to do whatever they want without restraint or the one who corrects trains and even punishes them to help them learn what's right. No one likes to be correct. Sorry. And disciplined by God, but his discipline shows his people as for us.
[37:05] When he corrects you through his word circumstance or other people, see it as proof of his love and ask him what you need to learn. Which that part, that makes sense to me as sort of an, uh, a summary of this section. It's just that line that kind of threw me even as reading it out loud. Um, because I think that, I think again, it's a, it's something that's said to make a point. Um, because if you, if you as children, if you have not been disciplined, it's almost like they're, it's saying you don't have parents then if you, if you haven't been disciplined and trained, then you, you, you're orphans or whatever. And the term, did your dear Bibles use the term illegitimate? Yep. Not, not legitimate. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay.
[38:00] What's more, we had human parents who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the father of spirits and live our human parents disciplined us for a little while as it seemed best to them, but God does it for our benefit so that we can share his holiness.
[38:19] No discipline is fun while it lasts, but it seems painful at the time. Later, however, it yields the peaceful fruits of fruit of righteousness for those who have been trained by it.
[38:33] Mm-hmm. First is righteousness and peace. Yeah. For those who have been trained by it. And mine says the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Okay. Yeah.
[38:46] As peace in it, but just differently. Yeah. I think that, that it, it makes sense. I mean, I think that one line you could kind of easily not understand, but I think the whole idea of we are disciplined by our parents first when we are young and like, like we sometimes say, we hate it. We hate being told what we can't do. We hate being the only one that has to come home at 10 o'clock or whatever it might be. Um, and then there comes a point when we realize that we see things around us that show us the value of not having been allowed to do that. Um, Mm-hmm. Um, Mm-hmm.
[39:33] Um, It's a little bit the, I keep thinking of Katie, especially with her working out, you know, the no pain, no gain cliche that people say, and like, she was so disciplined before she went.
[39:47] And I think she still is in DC. She would get up, you know, last March and April when it was snowing still, and she'd have to go run and she hates to run, but she, it really paid off for her, you know? Mm-hmm.
[40:00] And so it's this, I think I'm hoping that'll help her in all areas of her life. Just seeing, you know, it, it, it's great when you can see the results like that, when you have put in the hard work and Right.
[40:14] All those things. Um, I was talking to a parent who, um, had, has a, we were talking about how we raised our children and how it felt when they went to college, um, in terms of how smart they were in all through school, which meant that they never really had to work really hard at it. And then they go to college and it's like, wait, um, I remember that wake up call in some ways. I feel like I sailed through high school, as long as we didn't have to talk about trigonometry and algebra. Um, but you get to college and the, just the sheer amount of homework that, that we had to do was daunting. And if you didn't do it, you didn't learn. Right. Um, but we were talking about the fact that sometimes when it's too easy for kids, they don't learn to study because they don't have to. Um, and that works in high school.
[41:18] Right. Right. I, our, our oldest son will talk about he, our children were never, they never reject rebelled against discipline. Um, Marty probably complained about some of it more than the other two. Um, but very rarely would we hear things that it's not fair, but if it was going to be said, it was going to be Marty. You know, Marty, if you go with your friend in a car, you have to wear your seatbelt.
[41:51] They're not wearing their seatbelts. Well, then you're not going with them. Um, and cause we could see him in the car when they were driving by. And of course, with the shoulder harness, you can see if someone's not wearing a seatbelt. And so, you know, it's that some of that was that, you know, just like, don't, don't tell my friends, don't say anything to their parents, don't embarrass them, whatever.
[42:18] And it's like, well, that's fine. You just can't go anywhere with them. Right. Conversation's over. Yeah. Um, and yeah, they do, they get, do get to the point where they realize that we did know what we were talking about. Um, so, um, Linda, why don't you read, um, 12 through, uh, 17.
[42:47] Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees, make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
[43:17] See that no one is sexually immoral or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected.
[43:36] Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done. Mine starts out, strengthen your drooping hands and weak knees. You just had weak knees, but you had, you had, what is yours saying? Feeble. Feeble arms and weak knees. And mine says drooping hands and weak knees.
[44:06] And they, um, if any part is lame, it would be healed. It will be healed rather than injured more seriously. What did yours say? Lame that so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. Okay.
[44:26] Um, I like the, there's in this, we, we, we revisit the fact, the care for the community, um, the care for those around you, uh, make sure no one misses out on God's grace. Um, which is not only run the race with perseverance, but look around and see who might be around you. Um, kind of like that, that video that maybe you saw of the, the one of the races where the guy that was winning had become so, um, um, um, he started running like kind of like not straight and he was starting to fall and he just, his body couldn't do it anymore. And this man who'd been following him all along and he'd been out in front of the crowd, he ran up and he helped him get across the finish line. And when people were like, why did you do that? And then he said, because he was winning, he won this race. He was ahead of everybody the whole time. And so why would I have taken it away from him just because he had given it so much and he was so close. I thought it was a really powerful story. Um, but I think it, this, this particular part of this resembles that. What do we do when we're running the race with perseverance, um, and moving right along, do we, um, is there any, not sightseeing, but is there any peripheral vision where we look to see whether people have fallen by the wayside or tripped or whatever has happened that makes them kind of fall off that, that path? What's our responsibility? Um, and I think that that makes sure no one misses out on God's grace, make sure no root of bitterness grows up that might cause trouble and pollute many people. It's not just about what might happen to you. It's what happens to those around you. I'm not quite sure how, um, the, the, how we would envision a root of bitterness.
[46:48] Um, do you think that that might be something along the lines of, um, disagreements and not being, um, I don't know, what would you think? How would you describe that?
[47:07] What would a root of bitterness be that we could establish? We do have a footnote on that. Well, let's hear it. Because I have a Bible without footnotes. The bitter root can be interpreted two ways. One, when Moses renewed the covenant covenant with the people of Israel, he warned them about the root that bears bitter and poisonous fruit. He referred to the act of turning to false gods and stubbornly, stubbornly following the desires of the hearts. When we lose sight of God's grace, the bitter root of unbelief grows. Second is the verse also teaches people to avoid bitterness that springs up in the hearts and minds. A bitter root comes when we allow disappointment with God or others to grow into resentment. And when we nurse grudges over past hurts or unmet desires, bitterness brings with it, jealousy, anger, dissension, and immorality. Be alert for it in your own life and help others deal with it as well. Every time you feel hurt by someone, immediately ask the Holy Spirit to take care of that bitterness so it doesn't poison you. I think you've summed up what could be in some ways at the heart of many very difficult church conflicts. Yeah. Yeah. And I hadn't really thought about that line, that verse in terms of what that means. I had a sense and what I read was that essentially don't create this obstacle for other people, which we might refer to the verse that says, don't put any stumbling blocks in front of your brothers and sisters, take the log out of your own eye, things like that. But I feel like what this, what this particular part is saying that from the no one don't make sure no one misses out on God's grace, make sure there's no root of bitterness growing up that might cause trouble and pollute people. And then there's the sexual immorality. So it's kind of like this little, this little nugget of getting along in the Christian faith 101. Yeah. That keep your eyes on Jesus, keep pursuing with perseverance, and also be mindful of how you're traveling. Be mindful of how you're carrying yourself and how other people are doing. Because most church conflicts come from disappointment, hurt, anger, which turns into bitterness and kind of resentment that then grows, you know, I mean, maybe you've seen it, maybe you haven't. But it happens in churches. And that's when I am, that's the kind of thing over the years that has that talked to me into believing in spiritual warfare.
[50:20] Because when churches can thrive, but then there becomes infighting, then then the church kind of becomes a place that doesn't feel as safe. It doesn't feel as nurturing, because people can sense that there's something they might not even be able to know what it is. And sometimes churches aren't very good at seeking reconciliation and forgiveness among the body, because people want to hold on to sometimes whatever it is that upsets them. And the reason churches are prone to that more so than a company or because, I mean, we all have this everywhere.
[51:05] But a church is filled with people who are voluntarily there. They don't have to be there. And so it's, but it's, it's sometimes it's important to know, it's important to know and see that because when you see the signs of it, then sometimes you can start to sort things out before it gets to be too bad.
[51:30] Yeah. I'm sure neither of you has ever seen church conflict. I grew up a pastor's child, remember?
[51:42] Yeah. Yeah. It's, and the, you know, there's, there's always more good than not in churches, but it's hard when, what I observed, what I actually called spiritual warfare was when a church would start to flourish. And then there would be some incident that would happen that would kind of pull some people away from that.
[52:13] And then, and then people would question, what are we doing and criticize people. And it, it, it can be remedied relatively quickly. If people are willing to talk, people are willing to, to work on whatever it is, and then you just move on.
[52:30] In worst case scenarios where there's been sexual abuse or sexual misconduct of some sort, that sometimes takes generations to, to, to heal.
[52:42] One of my, one of the churches, my dad was at down in Maryland split over whether or not to have open communion. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a conversation I never even could imagine.
[52:56] In the Lutheran church, it was, yep. Wow. I forget about it because I go into the Methodist church now, I'm a Methodist and we do have it, but yeah, growing up, you had to be confirmed. You had to be Missouri Senate Lutheran to take communion in the Missouri Senate Lutheran church. My dad called it misery Senate.
[53:28] Yeah. Well, there, there, there are those aspects of the Missouri Senate Lutheran church for sure. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there are variations of that in the United Methodist church, but people, it's sometimes is very subtle and I don't think people hear it when they invite people to come to communion and they say, if you believe.
[53:52] Right. Well, what if you're not sure? Or what if it's the first time you've ever been offered communion and you're trying to figure out if you can, if my, my thought is always come all who are willing.
[54:04] If you're willing to come, that means you're looking and we leave the rest of it up to God. But so it's, it's a fine. It's a, it's a use of language that, that I've grown to be more aware of over the years because I kind of want to understand how is it that this is a sacrament and a means of grace and this can't be the way that somebody believes.
[54:30] Right. By leaving communion, not by watching other people receive communion, but by receiving it. Yeah. Um, and that by practicing an open table that we, um, we believe that people can come to that grace from any place, from anywhere.
[54:46] And, you know, I have, this is a little bit off topic, but, um, Dan and I have had a discussion about, um, communion for a long time because his impression was that many times in our church, specifically Pendleton, when the pastors would invite people for communion, it made it almost sound like that was the day that you committed yourself to Christ or what have you. So Dan grew up Baptist and, you know, it takes a very literal of, you know, that you need to be saved and all those things.
[55:22] And I do too. I feel like the Methodist church is a little bit more conservative on that. You know, we don't talk as much, even though I think John Wesley was very evangelistic and very born again type.
[55:34] Um, but I think, you know, Dan, I think it has been uncomfortable sometimes because I think he feels like it's a substitute for making a commitment to Christ. Oh, okay. So I'm sorry, I'm not explaining it well, but that's well, because Pastor Tom would say, if you want Jesus in your heart. Yeah.
[55:55] Okay. So I see where Dan's coming from. Yeah. That, that, that this is the only way to get it is by coming up and taking this communion. Yeah. Which isn't, it isn't what it isn't the way it's meant to be, or it's just an interpretation. And, but I can understand why somebody would feel that way.
[56:15] Because for many, I think I've, um, I think that for many, there may be a person for whom there's a conversion moment in that receiving of communion. That's why I wouldn't ever insist on people being in a specific state of mind, other than willingness to come forward to receive it. Um, but I don't think that walking to the front is a decision for Christ.
[56:47] Right. It's not an altar call. It's community. Yeah. That's good that you, cause he, he, that's like one, that was the only like really stumbling block for him. Cause he, he was like died in the wall Baptist, but now he's been a Methodist for 20 years. But. And, and Baptists have a much different view of communion period in terms of, um, not taking it as frequently. And it means something different in the Baptist church. I don't even know what they think it means in the, in the, you know, there's the different traditions, there's the, the denominations that believe that literally it becomes the body and the blood of Christ. We don't believe that. Um, there are traditions. Ours is that we do it in memory of, and the Baptists, they, they believe in, in a similar way, except it's not a sacrament.
[57:47] Yeah. And the Baptist church baptism is the sacrament. Um, and so the, the, so communion is more what we would think of as an agape meal, which is sort of, uh, remembering the love of Jesus and remembering the crucifixion, but a little bit more of a casual. Um, I, I was invited to preach when we were in Medina, I was invited to preach across the street at the Baptist church. Matt was preaching at our church and I went over there to preach and it was communion Sunday. And when I was talking to Matt afterwards, he goes, well, as long as they don't mind that you turned their right into a sacrament, you're all good. And I was like, wait, do you think anybody noticed? I didn't, I, I, it's not like you came in and you, that you had got this enculturation. You just did communion. Well, I went and did communion, the body of Christ given for you, the blood of Christ given for you.
[58:51] So it's just a, it's just a different, it's the same thing, probably closer, certainly closer to the Baptist than we are to like the Episcopalians or Missouri Synod Lutherans. Yeah. Or Roman Catholic.
[59:04] Or, yeah. Yes. Yeah. On the subject of communion too, real quick. Some people don't like when it said the body of Christ broken for you because Christ's body wasn't broken. So they say Christ's body given for you. Ah, interesting. I feel like Jesus' body was broken. Isn't there something, something like in the Bible or like in his bones weren't broken, but his skin was, he was beaten.
[59:35] He was cursed. Well, so it can be looked at two different ways. There were bones in his feet and his hands that were broken for sure. You can't put, you can't put a metal stake into someone's hand like that and not break something. But they did not. And you know, they, they put their feet on one on top of the other one. Right. And the stake goes through both feet. So there's no question that there were things that were broken in addition to the fact that there, um, that the one thing that Jesus was saved from was that they would often break their legs and that's when they, that's when they would suffocate. Um, and they did not, what we know is based on what we know, they didn't do that. Um, it's just an interesting, cause I think there's nothing there's the, the crucifixion is all about his, his body being broken. It's broken and bruised. It's not about the bones that are broken. It's about the fact that his body was suffered truly, really suffered a horrific, horrific thing. Um,
[60:44] I think there are times when there are people that are, we mix people, we confuse people when we say the body of Christ, the blood of Christ, because people aren't always mindful that we don't mean that we don't mean that this becomes the body of Christ and the blood of Christ. But the language we use, um, when I gave communion to the youth group and they were this one young man, the blood, it was the blood, it was the blood in the body. And, um, and so it's, we kind of use a lot of mixed language that can be confusing. Yeah. Cause there's also someone who serves communion and says, represents the blood of what he gives it out. Hmm. So we taught in, uh, in the churches that I've served before we've allowed, um, children to help serve that even before they're confirmed. And what we teach them is, um, the love of Jesus given for you, the love of Jesus given for you, because we feel like sometimes the younger children, that's a pretty graphic kind of a thing to try to figure out how we say that once they got just a little, once they really, cause I mean, I had, I had a three-year-old serve with me and oh my goodness, it was the most wonderful. Jesus loves you. Jesus loves you. Jesus loves you. Jesus loves you. And just, um, yeah, pretty, pretty incredible. Um, that's so awesome.
[62:21] And we always made them do the juice because we didn't really want their grubby little hands in the bread. Why not? And when the children served on children's Sunday, then we broke up, we cut up all the bread. They, they, they're, we still felt like, and the hand sanitizing up behind the table, these like gazillion kids and we're like sanitizing. And that was before COVID. We were just trying to get all their boogers and all that kind of stuff sanitized. Super. I have to tell you this funny story.
[62:55] When Dan and I were serving and clearly it was a Catholic that had come up, um, because they were ready to, um, they were wanting to eat the bread. And then I thought, I think they were going to drink the cup, like, like many Catholics, Roman Catholics often do. Well, um, Dan gave this person a piece of bread and they put it into their mouth and Dan said, oh no, you're supposed to dip it in the cup. And so they took it out of their mouth and they started to, they didn't, they didn't, but Dan goes, I'll give you a new one. And I'm like, I'm going like this, I'm pulling it way back. Like there's no way you're putting it in this cup. I'll give you a new one. Here's the new one. You know, and people, so many times, people in the pews or chairs, they have no idea about the stuff that happens up there. The people drop their bread into the cup and then even worse is if they go fish it out and then what you're going to do with it. It's dripping grape juice everywhere. Oh yeah. And yeah, it's a, it's a life of a communion server.
[64:06] Um, I think I don't, I don't know if it wasn't you that I told that when I was talking to a couple of the youth about serving communion, they were asking me if I'd made the bread and I said, yes.
[64:23] And I said, it's a recipe that I learned specifically for communion bread because tears nicely. It doesn't crumble all over. It's got a soft crust. You know, there's no bad part of it.
[64:35] Typically. And so then we went on to talk about what it was like to serve communion and they were talking about serving communion at confirmation and they, um, or after their confirmation, however, it went and they were talking about being given, um, loaves of bread that were like crusty and how they go to pull the bread off and they'd be like, Yeah. Trying to yank, trying to rip it off the other side. And, and, oh, we just laughed because especially for your first time serving communion, that's a bad kind of bread to have.
[65:16] Yeah. And Dan, I always make Dan take the, the juice because he gives the most ginormous pieces of bread. And then I think Louie Bobstein said to him, I could have made a sandwich with that.
[65:30] I'm always, we just take the cup. I'll give them. Well, it's gotta be big enough so they can touch the grape juice and have their fingers not touched.
[65:40] Right. We had a man who did that and somebody was saying, man, I got a roll for communion. You know, they were describing this man gave them a roll, um, size piece of bread that only towards the end of the line.
[65:55] You only get that if you're at the end of the line. Yeah. You have so much to go over. So back to Hebrews. I love these conversations. Um, so back on topic.
[66:08] They, um, so Kelly, why don't you read, um, 18 through 24.
[66:18] Okay. Mine is called the mountain of fear and the mountain of joy. Hmm. Okay. You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire to darkness, gloom and storm to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking, words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them because they could not bear what was commanded.
[66:46] If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death, to death. The site was so terrifying that Moses said, I am trembling with fear, but you have come to Mount Zion to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
[67:03] You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels and joyful assembly to the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all to the spirits of the righteous made perfect to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
[67:27] Well, that's encouraging. I mean, it's, it's like, you're not going to the dark side of the mountain. You're coming to the good side of the mountain to the light.
[67:38] And so, yeah, it's your star Wars. Yeah. Or things like the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, where there's always the dark, scary mountains.
[67:55] And you're 24 read again what you said from for 24. Yep. To Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
[68:13] I think that Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant. Yeah. I'm interested in the word mediator.
[68:26] Yeah. I'm just looking to see. Our, our note for the whole section that I just read 18 to 24 is interesting.
[68:38] It says Mount Zion is another name for Mount Moriah, the hill on which the temple had been built. What a contrast between the people's terrified approach of God at Mount Sinai and their joyful approach at Mount Zion in his holy city.
[68:52] What a difference Jesus makes. It says, before Jesus came, God seemed distant and threatening. Yeah. Since Jesus has come, we can now see how God welcomes us through Christ into his presence.
[69:06] Accept God's invitation and join his worshiping community. When you think about, I mean, you've probably seen movies about Moses, right? Charlton Hestead.
[69:16] Yeah. Some of these movies and there's the, you know, up on the mountain with the 10 commandments, there's lightning and thunder and you know it's quite scary um and then the pictures we have of jesus standing arms out welcoming people um is quite a different quite a different picture have you been to the holy land i have yeah have you been to the two different mounts i have not been to um mount benai i've been to the to the parts of the holy land where jesus taught and did that i've not been to or at least i if i went to it nobody told me about well we're standing where the moses had the ten commandments and things like that i haven't been there um been on the sea of galilee and um to a variety of other really incredible places um yep but there's nothing that the terrain of israel and jordan um there aren't there aren't mountains and cliffs and things that that and i in what i've seen in try and traveling around there that would fit to me in the category of the images of moses and maybe that's because of the images in my mind when i think about some of the mountains in colorado or um some other places where you have big like really ominous mountains um in in in in the holy land and in in israel jordan and palestine my experience was is that it's not that there aren't big hills or mountains but they don't have the kind of rugged terrain that we think of there's there's a lot of desert looking more like arizona or someplace like that than big craggy mountains um the end of 24 was kind of tripping me up where it says jesus the mediator the new covenant into the sprinkled blood that speaks better word than the blood of evil so i went over to the message and the way they put it was um um jesus who represents us who presents us with a new covenant a fresh charter from god he's the mediator of this covenant the murder of jesus unlike abel's a homicide that cried out for vengeance became a proclamation of grace um you know it's i don't think of abel very much right i i don't either and so when they brought it up the comparison with jesus it threw me off for a minute but it does make sense now that you explain yeah that it's like his death was just a used like a senseless murder it was just a ci csi case right yeah jesus nothing nothing there was no glory no message no saving right um no saving grace right no saving grace literally yeah yeah um and then the the end here see to it that you don't resist the one who is speaking if the people didn't escape when they refused to listen to the one who warned them on earth how will we escape if we reject the one who is warning from heaven his voice shook the earth then but now he has made a promise
[73:19] still once more i will shake not only the earth but heavens also the words still once more reveal the removal of what is shaken the things that are part of this creation so that what isn't shaken will remain therefore since we are receiving a kingdom that can't be shaken let's continue to express our gratitude and with this gratitude let's serve in a way that is pleasing to god with respect and awe because our god really is a consuming fire so then that's more comparison of that thundering mountain and they that in in the movement of heaven and earth with jesus mm-hmm and then um i think that the i mean there's no reason to go through all of 13 but i thought that um that a good a good ending to this time in hebrews is the beginning of 13. keep loving each other like family don't neglect to open your homes to guests because by doing this some have been host to angels and the people who are in the world without knowing it remember prisoners as if you were in prison with them and people who are mistreated as if you were in their place marriage must be honored in every respect with no cheating on the relationship because god will judge the sexually immoral person and the person who commits adultery your way of life should be free from the love of money and you should be content with what you have after all he has said i will never leave or leave you or abandon you and that's why we can confidently say the lord is my helper and i won't be afraid what can people do to me that's why i mean there's a lot of grace in that yeah um at the very end now i'm going to tell you that i've not noticed this ever before at the very end it says greet your leaders and all of god's holy people the group from italy greets you what yeah where did that come from may grace be all at what point did we get italy in here right right it makes it sound like whoever wrote this was in italy at the moment yeah i guess that would be the case although italy by the word italy is not used in scripture we hear rome we talk about yeah but you very i don't know if i i think the reason it stuck out to me is because i don't think i've ever you heard the name of the country yeah i think israel we hear israel and we hear of other kind of countries but italy italy is just doesn't yeah it's not a good answer but it's not a good answer but it's not a good answer but it's not a good note on it here i think i'm gonna have to ask google when we're done why is italy mentioned in hebrews because you know it is it is it is the written the english version of scripture and so um there's no that by reading it this way maybe it does say italy maybe the maybe there's the the country's name couldn't be translated readily i don't know i'm just gonna have to look i just looked it up do you want me to tell you what it's sure funny enough too though the first google um you know how it comes up with what most people ask
[77:21] it said um why is italy mentioned in the polish national anthem i don't have just worry about that i didn't even know that yeah i can't read that um uh let's see it says paul spent the last years of his life in jail in rome so it seems he's sending the greetings i don't think this is a really good answer oh here's bible reference um yeah they all say different versions the king james version says they of italy salute you wow huh so i guess it's there yes italy is and the fact that he was writing but but when italy said that he was writing the book that he was writing the book that he was writing the book and then what we have knowing we have no proof or indication that paul wrote this right right it says it's um scholars differ on their opinion of what the writer really means by those who come from italy um this letter is often associated with paul who spent considerable time under roman imprisonment his efforts established flourishing christian presence there but alternately the reference to italy might mean those who came from italy to wherever the writer of hebrews finds himself and like i said we read about rome all the time not italy and that's weird but rome is in italy i just don't even know if thought was called italy back then right that country yeah um so stay tuned for for what what we'll be doing next and we'll be inviting people to join us for um what the the new the next new thing that we're going to do and when i say the next new thing it's really just a matter of which book of the bible we're going to go to um and so because i um i ordered some study guides to look at i i'm not going to decide until i look at them i have them in my hands um because though i have multitudes of things um but so far nothing is jumping out at me and saying this is it this is it so i want to do what i want to i want something that feels like it's the right thing yeah so we're we're headed into a pretty significant week here in our country yes we are yeah lots to be in prayer for and um for the poor south that's being hit again with an i don't even know you know we don't really have much room in the media to hear how are people surviving this hurricane after hurricane after hurricane i just don't even know um i can't even imagine that's um before covet and before i went to colorado i worked as a volunteer with children's disaster services and when there would be a hurricane we would go and set up shelter we the shelters would be already existing but we would set up within the shelters um space safe space for children um and provide care for them while their parents were tending to getting their paperwork together and stuff like that and it's it feels really has felt really strange not to be able to do anything in hurricane season for these families i wonder how they're even sheltering them because of how dangerous it would be to put them into these big gatherings of people i don't know yeah i know lots to be lots to be in prayer for i think the word is fatigue unfortunately like i think people are
[81:29] fatigued about covet i think you get the hurricane fatigue you know you just it's too much it's almost just too much to think about i think we all have election fatigue too yes exactly well and i think when you put the um some of the the racial tension and covid and the hurricanes and the political climate it's not surprising to um to look at the the things that are being looked at from a how's our health doing our mental health our um physical health and i think that fatigue um and a a love a low level of anxiety that we wouldn't even necessarily call it's it's not like the typical anxiety it's on alert because of whatever things are happening in so many different places and while even while we're looking at one there's something else happening and it's just everywhere and so i think there's probably a reason that we haven't even gone looking for how it is in hurricane world because we just can't take it in i know we can't keep taking it in i feel so calloused for saying it but yeah i have described the last nine months as like or i guess six or seven months as like standing on jello you know it just feels like it's a constant change you gotta just be ready for anything and that's exhausting to us individually and corporately to just not feel like you know it i guess it it does draw us a lot closer to god because he's the only thing that doesn't change you know like anything can change at any moment it feels like um and i think you're right that um everything the way we communicate the way we live together um the way we celebrate together um has all changed in addition to how we mourn and grieve and um you know things like birthday parties things like that are just so different how does a how how do parents of small children they've all had to figure out ways to celebrate their children's milestones um and it's um and and yet we find ways to carry on that's right um people have different people say you know they did it during war times they did it during you know lots of different ways but most of us haven't most of us have not we've had a cliche love you know we've we've been you know when when 9 11 happened it was i think that was the the first and only time in my lifetime that there was a sense of the potential danger that we that we could be in danger um right and and and then we kind of set it aside because it went away right right i think there's one of the the what was that somebody said um somewhere about um the people when they said well imagine what you'll be doing in five years back in 2015. yeah this wouldn't have been on it this wouldn't have been on the list right or the thing that says who'd have thought that in grade school the most important lesson you learned was how to avoid cooties spray remember that yeah debbie has been known to call herself the the on cootie patrol um at the church
[85:31] um oh my gosh i love her oh yeah i this is gonna sound extremist but i mean i'm i'm seriously worried about you know i heard today like a cold civil war but i get worried at times that you know people are going to get so angry and up yes over the election yes it's scared like never in my life have i ever thought we would come to blows with one another in this country right and and christians against each other i know i know that if you follow this party you can't be christian if you think this way you can't be a christian if you yeah really you don't know what's people's hearts right you don't we can't i have siblings that are democrats i have siblings that are republicans and they are all faithful christians can't tell me that my i think my my brothers one is one and one is the other you can't tell me that my brothers is more faithful than the other right that's um um and i think some of the the anxiety around will there be um a coup or something if it doesn't go the way some people um feel like it should will there be um violence in washing in washington will there be you know some of the things that they talk about that um if if the election if if trump isn't re-elected will he do something that that says that the election was invalid right um and you know i suppose there's another counterpart to what what would happen if uh biden won but it's it's um i just don't think it's i think we thought 2016 was contentious and it's nothing compared to nothing compared to now yeah or what we went through in 2000 with the hanging chads and the supreme court ruling but no never did i believe at that point that people would take up arms against each other you know and like that the group that um was planning to kidnap the michigan governor right what is happening i know just it's unbelievable um but there was another governor they were planning on kidnapping also i did hear that was it wisconsin or i don't know where it was yeah some other state yeah well i think it's um you know we're we're not in a place where we think we're gonna we're at any risk for leaving christianity but we're certainly at a place where we're needing to hang on to all the solid things in our christian faith all the all the the really the plumb line the the anchors the all the images that we can think of that represent being grounded in in our faith and what i keep trying to remind people if you've seen anything that i've written which is probably too much lately but jesus didn't come to change the minds of the politicians jesus didn't come to take out rome jesus came for the people and we can't make the people who are non-believers live our christian lives and our christian beliefs we can pray for them we can tell others how we think and feel
[89:31] we can't feel but we just need to keep our eyes in jesus and remember that the god of the universe knows knows not only our name but every here on our head people in washington don't they're not the ones that we live for except kate i was going to say how does katie feel living there does it does it make her nervous you know she's couldn't she couldn't be more apolitical she she really just doesn't care she doesn't want to be involved it's so fascinating because i'm rather interested in it all and i always have been um and her twin brother is studying political science but he's in cincinnati but um i think she's okay about it all right now um i think she does worry a little bit but you know she's partaken of a few like she i think i mentioned she went down to see the ruth bader ginsburg memorials and um she pretty much stays away from it and when she can but um i think she's a little you know has a little fear going into tuesday um because yeah it's when we were there the dan and i and her went down to um the black lives matter plaza the one that they renamed which was lafayette square i guess and there was nobody around then it was fascinating and they had um pictures up of all the posters and stuff they had made it into like a permanent banner um and it was really fascinating it was almost eerie because it was so quiet but um yeah i don't know i think i mean i think she'll she'll do fine and i'm so grateful that she does have this group of christians that she's hanging with and one of the pastors is actually from buffalo so oh wow yeah a young woman and so she and katie talk all the time about the bills and how nobody else gets buffalo you know and um and it's just a comforting i think god did that to help he connected katie with her i think just to show katie that that you know he's he's thinking about her and he's wonderful is is she a non-denominational pastor or you know they are what this group that she's in is called chi alpha and i haven't looked at it too in depth i think because i i don't want to not like it because she likes it um i think it might be assembly of god oh okay i don't know if you've heard chi alpha at all ever no but i haven't had any reason to look yeah she really seems to like it they have um they do have female pastors so i guess that's a good thing yeah um some i don't know assembly of god does yeah they do okay i think of them as a little more fundamentalist maybe they are but they're one of the and i'd have to look again at their at some of their history but they've had they've had women clergy for some time um some of the uh it's it's often some of the more non-denominational that come out of a more fundamentalist baptist that they might be non-denominational and charismatic but if their roots are in a fundamentalist baptist kind of a place then then they'd be they're less likely to some of the big you know like the chapel and some of the other big non-denominational you'll never find um you there might have people that they call women pastors but you'll never see one that's up higher than children and yeah yeah right right yeah so it's um well that's wonderful and the reality is we have no reason to expect that washington would be the source of difficulty because where things have flared up across the country they've been
[93:37] in places i wouldn't have even thought you know minneapolis and um some of the other cities where there's been some significant events oregon of all places oregon is like all hippies and juice bars right i'm just kidding because the other side of oregon is a lot of the people that want to live in the hills and have guns and homeschool their children and build barricades so it's a it's it's a mixed it's a mixed bag and it can and it can happen anywhere like jack in one of his classes um they were talking about domestic terrorism and he said so of course they brought up timothy mcveigh from good old pendleton new york yeah i'm a city bomber and he goes i didn't say a word mama he said i didn't know he calls me mama when he's talking seriously he's like i didn't tell them mama that i was from pendleton and they named where he was from huh yeah i like not even just buffalo or new york oh no pendleton yeah i didn't live around here i lived in dc at the time that that happened and i remember um yeah we have several people in our church that went to high school with him i think joe matina went to high school with him wow yeah very interesting when i was in colorado it didn't really dawn on me aurora colorado but that's where the movie theater shooting was yeah so that that movie theater um i would drive by it periodically and it took me a few minutes to be like wait this is aurora there's that movie theater and it's it's all closed up and yeah but still there just shows i mean it it literally can happen anywhere and people can come from anywhere and and we pray it happens nowhere i know i know it all right well let's pray okay god you hear us and you know us we pray that as we read in scripture that you will set the path before us and guide us in our running this race sometimes god it's hard because there's a lot of rocks in the road and a lot of chaos and thunder and stuff around us and we really need to know that we are sheltered in your love and care for you are that which never changes and we give you thanks for that and we pray for our country and our community our families our children and our church this night in jesus name amen amen thank you good night everybody good night rest well thank you good night