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[0:00] Interestingly tonight I'm gonna start with some words from the hymn Trust and Obey. Are you familiar with that? Absolutely love it. How about you Josh? Do you know it?

[0:12] Probably, but it's not off the top of my head. Trust and obey, cause there's no other way to be happy in Jesus.

[0:22] So it's, it plays into our, our, what we're going to read in Hebrews and I'm not going to read all of it. We'll go back to some, some of it.

[0:34] Um, he says in fellowship suite, we'll sit at his feet or walk by his side in the way. What he says we will do where he sends. We will go. Never fear only trust and obey.

[0:50] Trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus. And then goes on to say to so sweet to trust in Jesus, just to take him at his word, just to rest.

[1:03] That's an important part upon his promise, just to know, just thus saith the Lord. Jesus, Jesus, how I trust him, how I've proved him or an or Jesus, Jesus, precious Jesus.

[1:17] Oh, for grace to trust him more. Oh, for grace to trust you more. Amen. That can be our, our opening prayer.

[1:27] Um, we're going to look at some parts of Hebrews three, four, and five, uh, this evening. And one of the things, the reasons I read some of that, uh, him is because the themes of Hebrews four and five kind of goes around on the subject of rest, obedience.

[1:50] Um, and it's important. And I think Josh last week, we talked about the fact that Hebrews, which is often called an epistle is actually not really considered an epistle because it's written like a sermon.

[2:06] It's not written like a letter to the people of from, you know, when, when, um, Paul wrote most of the letters to the, the, to the people, the epistles.

[2:18] And we actually, they're actually biblical research says we don't know who it is that wrote, um, the, the book of Hebrews.

[2:30] Um, it's thought as we talked about last week, that it was a sermon that was preached. And it reads like a sermon and it was distributed across churches and congregations, um, for people to read to the congregation.

[2:47] Um, and we, we went over in the first couple of chapters, Jesus and angels are compared and angels, as we know, from some of the new Testament stories have great power.

[3:01] And so in the old Testament have great power and sometimes have military force and, you know, our, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, power to be reckoned with.

[3:13] And then in the new Testament, we read mostly about messengers, messengers to Mary and Joseph messengers in other ways. We think back in the old Testament about how Jacob wrestled with an angel or a man does we don't, it doesn't really say which one.

[3:31] So the people that the sermon of he in Hebrews was written for were people that were putting Jesus and angels at the same, at the same understanding.

[3:44] And in Hebrews, Jesus is considered not only a savior, an apostle. Um, and wow, I just forgot my other word.

[3:57] Um, and he, a Prince. So it's different kind of a Prince, but the, we, we never really thought about Jesus as an apostle.

[4:09] We think of the disciples as apostles. Um, and so the writer is trying to convince the people that are hearing the message who are drifting away from Christianity because it's hard and they're being persecuted and they're drifting away.

[4:26] And the sermon in Hebrews is written to try to get them to come back to try to keep them from leaving the church, from leaving the community. Um, don't be confused.

[4:38] Don't go following other things. And it was most comfortable for them to go back into the Jewish tradition. Um, it's thought that the people listening to the sermon are what we call Jewish Christians.

[4:52] You know, they were practicing Jews and now they're Christians. So that's just kind of a starting place for, um, kind of what Hebrews is about.

[5:03] And as I said, it reads like a sermon. Um, and so before we go to Hebrews, um, if you have your Bibles in front of you, we're going to go to Psalm 95.

[5:26] Um, who's got it in front of them? Anybody? Okay. Josh, would you read it to us?

[5:37] I do. Sure. Yeah, you can do it. I don't know what version you have, but it doesn't matter. All right.

[5:49] Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord. Let us shout aloud to the rock of our salvation. Let us come before him with thanksgiving and extol him with music and song. For the Lord is the great God and the great King above all gods.

[6:04] In his hand is, are all the depths of the earth. And the mountain peaks belong to him in the sea is his before he made it and his hands formed the dry land.

[6:16] Come, let us bow down in worship. Let us kneel before our Lord, our God and maker. For he is our God. We will. And we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care.

[6:29] Today, if only you would hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah. As you did that day, as you did that day at Massa in the wilderness.

[6:43] Where your ancestors tested me, they tried me through, though they had seen what I did. For 40 years, I was angry with that generation. I said, they are a people whose hearts go astray and they have not known my ways.

[6:57] So I declared an oath in my anger. They shall never enter my rest. Thank you. And thanks for letting me put you on the spot like that. Sure.

[7:10] This particular psalm is a psalm that came way after, that was published way after Hebrew.

[7:25] So people had access to it, maybe orally, but they didn't have it in writing. The psalm, though, is referenced repeatedly in Hebrews.

[7:39] And Psalm 95 is usually recited at the beginning of the synagogue service, the Sabbath service.

[7:49] And it's used to get people to reflect and recall God's saving acts and to look into their own hearts for kind of like, am I resistant to God?

[8:05] And so we're going to see in Hebrews how that might be referenced. So since we talked about one and two last week, let's look at three.

[8:21] Therefore, brothers and sisters, holy partners and a heavenly calling, consider that Jesus, the apostle, high priest, that's what I was thinking, not prince, apostle and high priest of our confession was faithful to the one who appointed him.

[8:45] Just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house, yet Jesus is worthy of much more glory than Moses, just as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.

[8:58] For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now, Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant to testify to the things that would be spoken later.

[9:10] Christ, however, was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if we hold firm the confidence and the pride that belong to hope.

[9:22] And then in my Bible, the next part is called a warning against unbelief. Does anybody else have a title like that? Is it the same? Yeah. Mine says that too.

[9:35] Does it? And the warning, the Holy Spirit says, today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, as on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your ancestors put me to the test.

[9:48] Though they had seen my works for 40 years, therefore, I was angry with that generation. And I said, they always go astray in their hearts, and they have not known my ways.

[9:59] As in my anger, they will not enter my rest. Back when Moses was taking the people of Israel into the promised land, did anybody ever see, and Josh, you might be a little young for this, but the movie, The Land Before Time with the dinosaurs?

[10:19] My sister has the every single VHS tape of that in my basement. Uh-huh. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Everyone. Well, you're going to enjoy this.

[10:32] Maybe you'll just laugh at me. Similarly to when the people of Israel were coming, they were just on the brink of entering the promised land. And I think about the dinosaurs getting to that place where they see where they're going.

[10:46] They see the valley where there's green grass and there's water. And it's a ways to get there. The people in going into the promised land, they sent out scouts ahead of time to check out the promised land.

[11:04] And what they found was, sure enough, abundance, food, greenery, water, all of that stuff. But they also found that the cities, that the towns that they found there were very well protected, walled cities.

[11:21] And what they found was described as a strong force. Because I think the people of Israel thought maybe they would just kind of go into the promised land and it would be theirs.

[11:35] You know, what do they call that? Squatting. That when you move into an area and you just live there, it becomes yours. Because I'm pretty sure that the people who were already in that neighborhood were not thinking that it belonged to someone else.

[11:52] So the scouts came back and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We've come these 40 years. We are not going.

[12:02] It's too hard. It's too big of a risk. And not for the first time, they said, we would rather go back to Israel and be slaves in captivity than take the risk of going into this land and being beaten by forces that we have not yet met.

[12:22] If you were leading a group someplace, can you imagine you got all the way there and it took time? I don't care if it's a hike or what you're doing, but you've got people almost there and they have a rebellion and they're like, nope, not going.

[12:39] If you've ever led youth group or experienced youth group, sometimes you experience that. Don't want to do that. Uh-huh. And you have to kind of punt.

[12:52] And the amazing thing is they didn't go. They didn't. They were in the wilderness for 40 more years. And this part, I think, is interesting in that is that until the generation of the people that were afraid, including Moses, who wasn't afraid, he was just appalled.

[13:16] He thought God should just zap them all with lightning or something. Until that generation died, that's when Joshua, Joshua and Caleb both believed they should go.

[13:30] Let's take the risk. Let's go into the Holy Land, the Promised Land. And so the reference, that helps to understand the reference in Hebrews in that chapter 3, the 7 through 11 or thereabouts, is that don't, you know, this happened before.

[14:05] Don't do it. Don't disobey. Don't back out now. Don't do it. Don't do it. And then, take care, brothers and sisters, that none of you may have an evil, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

[14:24] But exhort one another every day as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partners in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end, as it is said, today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.

[14:46] Now, who were they who heard and yet were rebellious? Was it not all of those who left Egypt under the leadership of Moses, but with whom he was angry for angry 40 years?

[14:58] Was it not those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness, and to whom he did swear that they would not enter his rest, if not to those who were disobedient?

[15:10] So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. What does that say to you, that particular description of the story that is being preached as supposed conversion and keeping people in the faith?

[15:32] How convincing would you find it? I made a note in my Bible about how quickly we forget what God does for us, and how quickly we let ourselves be led astray and distracted by the world.

[15:53] And we have to remember not to rebel and just to keep on going, keep on following Christ. Because we don't want to make God mad.

[16:11] Do any of you come from a background where the scary stories of God help to keep you connected with faith? Well, like fear of, I mean, there's no violence here other than they just didn't get where they wanted to go.

[16:34] I grew up, my dad was a pastor. He was a Lutheran pastor. He always taught of the loving, forgiving God. My mother, on the other hand, was knocking on pastor's daughter, if you don't do what's right, you're going to hell.

[16:51] So I had a little bit of both. What about you, Lori? No, I can't identify with that. But as an adult and having had this Christian walk for 30 years, I have grown to have fear of God, but not in a punitive way.

[17:21] More in a sense of if I don't maintain that relationship and begin to slip, as Linda was saying, there are consequences.

[17:31] And again, not in a punishing way, but if I don't do my morning devotion, I could very easily get off track today.

[17:42] And the same goes for anything even more long-term than just morning devotion. So I guess that's how I relate to it. What about you, Josh?

[17:54] Well, my grandfather might be in the background. He's talking on the phone to somebody. I'm not sure who. But I was always raised, you know, literally in church almost all the time.

[18:09] And it was more just like, I mean, very recently, I've actually started to get really into things myself.

[18:19] It was more just like, I did it because my mom did it, and therefore I did it too. But, you know, recently I've started to actually read the Bible the entire way through.

[18:30] Wow. A whole bunch of books I've never actually opened before. And it was not really so much like, don't do bad, that's bad to do, because you're sitting against God.

[18:43] It was more just, don't be a bad person in general, because it's better for everyone else and you if you are. Just be nice to one another.

[18:54] Be kind. Be loving. Don't do bad things, because it will cause you to go astray, but it was never really that was the emphasis.

[19:05] It was because it's loving to your fellow man to do so. Right. Yeah. And I think mine, I didn't even know about what we call hellfire and brimstone.

[19:18] I don't know if that's a familiar preaching. Hellfire and brimstone preaching is basically, there's a preacher, Jonathan, it'll come to me.

[19:33] But he has a sermon where he will say, you are more lowly than a spider hanging from a spider's web. I mean, it goes on and on and on and on, but it's condemnation and redemption.

[19:48] Condemnation and redemption. And the idea is, is that I don't, there may have been a style of preaching that convicted people.

[19:58] If you convict people of their sinfulness, then they will be desperate for God's mercy and for salvation in Jesus Christ. That has, that's not a style of preaching that you hear a lot about.

[20:13] It depends on the churches you go to. You go to some fundamentalist church and churches and that's kind of what you're going to hear. And there are people who, there are people who love that kind of preaching.

[20:29] Tell me how bad I am because I already know and then offer me grace. And I always felt like, how could I point this way?

[20:40] When I'm standing right here, you know how they say, if you're pointing, your thumb's pointing back at, your other fingers are pointing back at you. If you're pointing at someone else. I always looked at the, I struggled with the stories in the old Testament of judgment and condemnation and, you know, basically obliterating populations out of punishment in battle.

[21:05] When it comes to stories like this, there's two things that I see. One is we've been here before, like now our current culture and sort of climate of disagreement and violence and fighting.

[21:24] And, um, some people don't even know what they're fighting about. And it's very similar to some of what we've seen in the biblical story.

[21:37] Um, and some people find that peaceful because they say, well, we, we went, we did this before we're going to find our way.

[21:48] And I think this story about Moses getting very angry with that generation. Um, and as we go into chapter four, though, he says, it says, um, in verse 11, as in my anger, I swore they will not enter my rest.

[22:10] What is, what, what do your version say? Do they call it rest? Yes. They do in, in NIV. Yeah.

[22:22] Um, and one of the questions that comes out of this is what does that mean? What is this rest that he's talking about?

[22:33] And remember going back to Psalm 95 as the Psalm that was read going into the Sabbath service, where when they left that service, they would be in Sabbath rest for the next 24, 36 hours.

[22:50] Um, and so in chapter four, let me make sure, um, I got to my notes.

[23:07] Um, so in chapter four, let's see.

[23:22] Um, Linda, you want to read the first 11 verses? Sure. Sure. Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.

[23:40] For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did. But the message they heard was of no value to them because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.

[23:54] Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said. So I declared an oath in my anger. They shall never enter my rest.

[24:08] And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words.

[24:19] On the seventh day, God rested from all his works. And again in the passage above, he says, they shall never enter my rest. Therefore, since it still remains for some to enter that rest.

[24:35] And since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience. God again said a certain day calling it today.

[24:48] This he did when a long time later he spoke through David. As in the passage already quoted. Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.

[25:01] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains then a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

[25:12] For anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. Let us therefore make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

[25:31] Laura, you want to read the rest of it? I apologize. I need to just listen because I left my glasses in the car. Oh, that's okay. I'd have to walk all the way down the stairs and out the driveway.

[25:44] That's fine. Absolutely. How about you, Joshua? From starting to burn as well. Sure. As long as he's not going to interrupt anybody, that's fine.

[25:55] For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

[26:08] Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must get the count. Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

[26:29] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he did not sin.

[26:41] Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Do you have some kind of discussion going on at your house?

[26:54] Well, my grandfather's talking on the phone to somebody. He does this all the time. He doesn't have like a cell phone to text anybody, so he just picks up the phone and starts talking. Oh.

[27:05] I have a door closed, but that doesn't really work all that well. He's not disturbing me if he's not disturbing you. No. So what do you think about this whole biblical idea of rest?

[27:18] Where do we first encounter, which is described here in the Bible, where do we first encounter the thought of taking time off or rest?

[27:30] In Genesis. Yeah. And who took time off? God. On the seventh day, he rested. So how have we seen that, like, in history?

[27:50] Have we seen that invitation to rest on the seventh day be a part of our society?

[28:01] Go ahead, Lori. As I was going to say, it was a part of our American culture until not too long ago. I remember growing up, everything was closed on Sundays, and as a kid I thought it was quite boring, actually.

[28:17] But now I think it would be kind of nice if everybody took a rest, and now we don't even have that for holidays anymore. So just in, I don't know, maybe the last 20, 25, 30 years, culturally speaking.

[28:36] I suppose the first couple of months of COVID could be a Sabbath. Ah. Yeah, right. Making up for it here, right? Who's the one that was wishing for more weekends?

[28:50] And, Josh, growing up in a family where you had people working at church, you probably had not much concept of Sunday as being a restful day. No, Sunday was the day to go to work most of the time.

[29:03] I would get there pretty early most of the time. I'd go to service and things, and then I'd probably be home. Oh, this has to be moved over there, and they have to set up this over here.

[29:15] And it's like, okay, cool. And I'd end up being there until sometimes 2, 3, 4 o'clock. And, you know, as well as now that I have school, weekends are actually the time that I have a job at Wegmans.

[29:27] So I work, you know, four till close on Saturday and Sunday, and I'm doing schoolwork for Monday through Friday.

[29:37] So I'm like, oh, I don't actually have one of those. Oh, gee. But I know I'm trying to convince my whole family quite often just we need a vacation.

[29:48] We haven't been on one in a very long time. And we need a week. Here's me with your mother. Poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke. Poke, poke. Take time off. Go on vacation. Yeah.

[29:59] I've been trying to tell her that for a while. When she was going through seminary, she'd have – she'd get, like, one day off. And I'm like, oh, great, one day off. Fantastic. You can go do whatever you want to do.

[30:11] And she ended up, oh, she'll clean the house this day. I'm like, don't. Just go to the house. Josh, you know what Mr. Janes calls your mother? A stroke waiting to happen.

[30:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. She does all sorts of stuff all the time. She's doing everything. She can't be still. Well, and you grew up in a house like that too, Linda, where your church was work, not so much leisure.

[30:43] Well, you know, really, for my household, it wasn't really like that. My dad didn't make it seem like work.

[30:55] It was – and he always – one of my favorite stories – he always made family time. I don't remember what day of the week that he would make sure that he spent at home with his kids.

[31:08] But something came up, and the president of the congregation needed to speak with him. So he came over one evening, and he said, this is my night with my family, so you're going to have to sit in my living room with me.

[31:21] And he was balding on top, and he did the comb over, and my little sister always did the treatment for him. She would put ice on his head and then a hot washcloth and then put it in curlers to help the hair grow back.

[31:35] So as my father's meeting with the president of the congregation, my sister was doing her treatment to him. So my dad always – he was not a – yes, he worked hard.

[31:53] Yes, he ran the church. But he didn't make it – He wasn't frenetic about it. Right, right. He was a very gentle, laid back.

[32:04] Doesn't say much, but when he speaks, you best listen. Yeah, so. That's – I think my children grew up to some extent, certainly like Josh.

[32:20] They were typically recruited into helping. You know, if your church has started and there's no water in the baptismal font, you do like – you know, during a hymn, you're like trying to get one of your kids to come over and ceremoniously bring the water down the aisle during the offering so there'd be water for the baptism.

[32:43] But they also got recruited into helping and they were involved in Sunday school and youth group. I don't know that they would say – they would not describe it as being restful for us, except when church was over, pretty typically you'll hear people say, well, what do pastors do on Sunday afternoons?

[33:05] And for many pastors, and my husband's one of those, the answer is take a nap. Mm-hmm. Because you – it's hard work, and so you relax on Sunday afternoon.

[33:19] What is rest to you, to the three of you? What do you consider – what's restful for you? Well, for me, it's reading.

[33:34] But as I was reading this this morning, and it says about being obedient to God and being in God's rest, it made me realize that it doesn't – yes, it means physical rest, but also being obedient to God in other things.

[34:03] And my example of that is I can rest in God in forgiveness of others. I've been married twice before, and my second husband did some things that a lot of people would say were unforgivable, and things that he doesn't see as wrong.

[34:22] So he'll never receive forgiveness, and I can never say, I forgive you. But with God, I can rest in knowing in my heart that I have forgiven him, and I'm obedient to God in offering that forgiveness.

[34:39] So I just saw rest in a different light this morning when I was reading it. Yes, and that's where – that's one of the places we're going to go.

[34:52] What about anybody else? What do you consider to be rest? I personally just feel like anything that's not stressful is kind of rest. Like, you know, I – because I'm at my grandfather's farm here, and, you know, we were working outside all the time.

[35:08] You know, we were pushing dirt around, leveling the yard and fixing things, all sorts of stuff. But it was honestly pretty fun. I got to drive a bulldozer. It's pretty fun.

[35:19] So it wasn't – it was hard work because I was out moving things and lifting stuff and fixing stuff. But it was also fun.

[35:29] So it wasn't really stressful. It was just very calming, honestly. Just – it's okay if I get it done. It's perfectly fine if I don't. And if I mess up, he's there to help fix it.

[35:42] So it's just – it's okay. It's all fine. Don't worry. Be happy. Have all sorts of things. It's great. Does he approach life with that attitude, your grandfather?

[35:54] He does now. I have no idea if he used to, but nowadays it's more like I'll get to it eventually if I feel like it sometimes. And – because I just got him to replace the dishwasher.

[36:09] The dishwasher's been broken for so long. They were just like, well, let's just do it. He's like, okay. And we replaced it that day. I was like, okay, cool. Great. It's done. Wonderful. So he does that sort of thing quite often.

[36:22] It's just – he told me one time when we were out here because I was talking about, like, oh, we got to get this done and that done and this done and that done. And he's like, no, hold on. Nothing has to be done.

[36:34] We're doing everything we are because it's entertainment and it's fun. Yes, it is technically work and we are getting things done, but nothing actually has a deadline that we have to meet.

[36:46] It's just – it's just work. Just have fun with it. Not a bad – not a bad attitude about things. What about you, Lori? What do you consider to be restful?

[36:57] Well, there's – I think we're talking about two kinds of rest. Yes, we are. Spiritual and physical. And the physical rest for me comes from vacating the norm, whether that's for a moment or for a week's vacation, diversion from the norm.

[37:18] And just kind of, you know, physically vacating from the stress, which could be a staycation or it could be a vacation.

[37:30] Love it. It's great. But if the spiritual rest isn't with me, it's not going to be as rejuvenating as it could be.

[37:41] If I'm still carrying the spiritual burden of – Linda mentioned unforgiveness, things like that. Anger, resentment, disobedience.

[37:54] And I'm kind of connecting all of this with the – Jesus said to abide in me and I am divine and you are the branches. And the abiding life is where I find the rest.

[38:05] He said, come to me and I will give you rest. And that is through the abiding and obedient life, which is a daily walk. It's a – Paul said I die daily.

[38:18] And so I think there's the two kinds of rest. And if I want it to really be a true rest, I think maintaining a regular Sabbath along with regular spiritual discipline is what brings me peace.

[38:42] Always easier said than done. It's easy to let the Sabbath go. It's easy to, you know, start to walk in my own ways without remaining connected to the vine.

[38:56] And so it's just – it's always a discipline. Yep. My – one of the things that I love – it can be described in a small moment.

[39:09] And that is when you get on a plane and when you feel the wheels come up into the underside of the plane, that's it. You're done.

[39:20] Whatever it was you had on your list to do leading up to that time is now – you can't do it, at least for a while. And so I love that. I talk about wheels up as a moment of release from that which I'm leaving, which is usually work.

[39:37] And – but I think that this, you know, the rest that God has promised and the promise of the – in 4, it says, therefore, while entering the – while the promise of entering his rest is still open, let's take care that none of you should seem to have failed to reach it, which comes by obedience, it appears.

[40:03] And it talks about God resting on the seventh day. And then we read about Jesus going apart to pray and to take time – to take time away.

[40:19] But I wanted to go back to what Linda said, which is in the midst of all of our chaos, that internal rest, which may not look like rest at all.

[40:35] It may just be that in – and I think some of the work that Josh is doing is, I think, is a description of how that's helpful.

[40:49] When we use our bodies, when we are constructing or doing some of those things, we – it actually gives our minds a rest.

[41:00] Not only that, but it gives – the physical motion gives our brain a rest because we get serotonin and there's all of that kind of stuff. My husband found rest, and sometimes still does, but not as much as it was when the kids were home, in gardening.

[41:19] Because he would herd – he still does this. He herds the plants. He gets different kinds from different people. And he – oh, they're going to grow here.

[41:30] And if that's not good, he moves them over here. I mean, not like all the time. But he could herd them. And as a pastor, you can't do that. You know, you can guide people, but you can't make them grow here or grow there.

[41:46] So I thought – he always thought that that was a great – a great pastor's leisure thing. And so your mom that does gardening, right, Josh?

[41:59] Well, she does now. She – when she was going through seminary, she didn't have time to it. But now she has all sorts of stuff. She's got all these peppers and things. I have to get some of those and bring them here.

[42:10] But she's got all sorts of things. She loves the garden. She has all these flowers, and I don't know what they are. I don't – I have no idea. And she'll tell me all about them.

[42:20] I'm like, they're purple. I – yeah, they are. They are. They're pretty, Mom. Yeah, good job. They look great. My dad helps her with it, too.

[42:30] She gets – he gets all the mulch and stuff and everything. And it looks great. She gardens all sorts of ways. But, yeah, she does all sorts of things.

[42:41] Do you think that's one of the things that it feels like it can be controlled? Yeah. She likes to do that, but she's also – she likes to do it, but she likes to learn how to do it as well.

[42:53] Oh, yeah. Like, she's – she had a problem with her zucchini plants a while back. I don't know what it was, but she had to end up cutting a whole bunch of it out and everything.

[43:04] But she got a whole lot of zucchinis and all sorts of stuff. She's got – she likes having the ability to just go out and just – there's no way of watering the plants any easier or any quicker.

[43:17] You have to just stand there with a hose and spray everything. So for 10 minutes, she gets the mind-numbing task of just pointing water at plants. And even if it's 10 minutes a day, something you don't have to really engage your mind to do is wonderful.

[43:34] It really – it personally brings me the spiritual rest as well as the physical rest. It's – when you're calm, you can notice that God is God.

[43:48] Be still and know that I am God. Absolutely. You know what you're doing. And even though you're not physically still, your mind is. And that's far more important because you can move things all day.

[44:02] Not that big of a deal. You're going to be tired, but just go to sleep. But when you're mentally tired, it's so much more relaxing to just suddenly just not have that.

[44:15] When I'm going through an exam and I'm worried about the exam and everything, I'll be – I'll try to tell myself when – before I walk in, you know, in three hours, it's over.

[44:27] Whether I did it well or not, it's done. So it's just – there's no reason. Just – you know, three hours and you're good. You're done and there you go. That's a good way.

[44:37] That's a good way. My supervisor out at the hospital used – he knew that I liked to hike. So he would – when it would be a very stressful week either in our group or things that I had to deal with, the traumas and stuff when I was on call, his advice would be hit the trails.

[44:59] You know, go explore, go see, go find another place to – you know, his version and my version of hiking are two different things because he's in his late 30s and he does the big, high, hard stuff with a toddler on his back.

[45:16] And I hike, but I don't hike like that. But moving my body makes me aware of the beauty of what's around me and makes me less filled with stuff.

[45:34] It helps my eyes to open, to see things that you can't help but stop and pause and see the wonder of it.

[45:45] And I think that is – that's combined with that sense of if I'm going into a pastoral situation that has me feeling a little anxious because it's important and it's – but it's complicated or it might be very painful.

[46:03] Just kind of like – not so much thinking about getting through it, but that you get to the door and you realize, I just have to go in.

[46:19] I just have to show up and stop thinking about what do I need? What do I need to know? What's going on? What will I say if this happens? What will I do if that happens?

[46:30] What direction do I want to kind of guide this person if they say this and da-da-da? And there comes a place where if I don't stop that, then I don't bring any peace into the room.

[46:42] And so over the years, I've learned to kind of go to a different place. And I think that is resting in God because it's recognizing it's not in my control.

[46:55] No matter – I have everything I need. God gave me everything I need. I need. And as soon as we stop flailing around looking for whatever it is that's going to fix the situation, I think we find rest.

[47:12] Or, you know, like the forgiveness you're talking about, and a lot of people talk about forgiveness as something that we do.

[47:26] Sometimes what people do is not forgivable, but sometimes forgiveness is not letting it have so much power over us anymore.

[47:37] I have a great sermon on that. That's a good thing. Just don't hold a grudge. The only thing that grudge is hurting is you.

[47:50] Yep. Yep. That's – Yep. And so I do think that is a part of that rest.

[48:02] And then I think the other part of it is the rest that comes – the final rest. As sometimes people want to say, which is when we die.

[48:18] Yes. The ultimate rest. And that it goes on to talk about in five that sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people.

[48:32] And goes on, Christ did not glorify himself. And talked about what Jesus did. And having been – you know, it goes on in five to talk about that around – let's see.

[48:53] In verse five, chapter five, So also Christ did not glorify himself in becoming a high priest, but was appointed by the one who said to him, You are my son. Today I have begotten you, as he says.

[49:05] Also in another place you are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek. In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death.

[49:19] And he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, having been designated by God as a high priest.

[49:35] And so there's that sense of rest has always been available to us, going back to Genesis and throughout the scripture when the instruction is to rest.

[49:53] And then Jesus comes, again, to offer two kinds of rest. One is salvation and eternal life. And the other one is in back in force, verse 15.

[50:09] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are yet without sin.

[50:22] And we referenced that when we did the first two chapters about how amazing it is that Jesus is represented as one who is human and understands our struggle and is not without sympathy or empathy for what we're going through.

[50:45] And so again, rest that comes from recognizing that God sent Jesus to show us in face-to-face.

[50:57] I mean, I'd like to meet him. I wish he came in my time. I keep thinking of all the stories that we read about Jesus showing up and people not recognizing him.

[51:09] And I don't want to be that person, but I just might be because we don't know. But to have that opportunity to, although he was the son of God, he was aware and empathetic and sympathetic for our weaknesses and for what we have suffered.

[51:39] I think that people find rest in God and knowing that they're not alone. A lot of people deal with isolation. And I think that I often encourage people to, if you're really angry about, maybe you're even angry with God, you're really put out.

[51:59] Well, you just go somewhere where people won't misunderstand you and go ahead and yell. Carry on. I just don't want anybody to be hospitalized for acting crazy out there.

[52:12] But follow the biblical model. You look at Psalms. They yell at God all the time. Where are you? Why haven't you done this?

[52:23] Don't you see me? Don't you understand me? And that sense of no matter what they're saying, they're recognizing that God is with them. That God's listening. At Catch the Spirit, a couple people did a workshop on prayer.

[52:39] Do you know what Catch the Spirit is, by the way, Pastor Kathy? Yes, I do. Okay. I've taught workshops at it before. Oh, okay. Just making sure. But anyway, at Catch the Spirit, somebody was doing a thing on prayer and a workshop on prayer.

[52:53] Frank White and a friend of his. And I went and I said something in the workshop. I said, if you're angry, yell at God. He can take it. And they're like, you really think it's smart to yell at God?

[53:06] I said, you think people didn't yell at God before? He's got big shoulders. He can handle it. He knows what we're going through. He knows where we've been. He knows what it's like. But he's also there to catch us when we're ready to be caught by him.

[53:23] A lot of people think that it's not okay to be mad at God. Have you guys ever yelled at God? Cried out.

[53:37] What about you, Josh? Have you ever yelled at God? Yelled at? Perhaps not.

[53:47] But definitely been angry with quite a few times. Yes. I'm looking for it just now. I don't know where it is. It's in Job somewhere.

[53:58] I don't know where. I think it was. But he's basically saying, like, I was good. I was a good man. Why did you do this?

[54:09] How could you possibly? What's with your justice and everything like that? God replied, actually replied to him and said, well, who are you to tell me how to run my universe?

[54:27] I run it the way I want to. Goodbye, little man. It was really nice. But I know us being angry at what we think God should do doesn't mean God should do it.

[54:43] Right. Because we don't know what God does and we're not going to. Right. God will do what is right. And you, it will, you should agree.

[54:54] But I know I've had times where it's like, what I think should happen and what I think should happen, it doesn't.

[55:05] And I'm always like, wait a second. Hold on. We made a deal here. Hold on a second. Hold on. And as I know for quite a few things, it was, I realized later it was actually really good that what I wanted didn't happen.

[55:22] Tim McGraw's unanswered prayers. Yeah. Yeah. There's not a lot of therapeutic value in being angry, although there is some.

[55:32] It's the initial, it's the first stage of dealing with something, becoming aware of your anger. And in that sense, if it's the first phase, if saying, God, I'm really angry about this, if that's helping me to address my own denial or whatever that may be, or to address what I'm, the situation at hand, then I guess that's the first stage.

[55:59] But to stay there, there's not a whole lot of therapeutic value, even if it is with God. There isn't. But I think that people, we have lived in a culture and a biblical and Christian society, not a society, but generations of, you can't be angry about how life turns out.

[56:24] You're not allowed to express your anger to God, only thanksgiving and love and gratitude and all of that kind of stuff.

[56:35] That something terrible will happen to you if you do that. And having worked over the years, some of this comes out very, very strongly around the loss of a child.

[56:48] And people, how could God do this to me? Why did God take this child away from me? And there's a variety of things that get involved with that that aren't necessarily related to this particular passage of scripture.

[57:04] But if people can't express that, it goes in. And then it starts to cause harm for them.

[57:15] And if they can, with a person of faith, feel like they can express that they just can't believe God did this. See, now my approach in around on the journey is that I believe that God wouldn't take a baby from someone, that God wouldn't harm a child, that God doesn't need more angels in heaven, that we live in a fallen world.

[57:44] And there are circumstances in which babies die. Many of those are very human related, which can be triked all the way back to original sin and how things have unfolded.

[57:57] Yeah, I think that that makes perfect sense. And just liking it to, you know, from person to person and any loss, particularly, like you said, if you don't get to the first stage of facing the anger, then you can never move on.

[58:17] And the same. Yeah, I see what you're saying. So it's it's kind of a both end where, yes, you have to give yourself permission to be to face the situation, whether it's between you and God or you and another human being.

[58:34] But also be able to eventually move past it. Because neither place is healthy. Right. No. And we don't deal well with anger generally.

[58:48] And people who grow up as victims of abuse or neglect or who experience chapters of their life of abuse experience an inability to be anger because it's not allowed.

[59:05] Right. Not allowed to be angry. Right. Right. And so there's a lot of sense that. Don't talk. Don't think. Don't feel. A lot of people are raised with that.

[59:17] And so giving permission to talk, think and feel is quite a new concept. And no, we shouldn't stay in our anger, but we are made in God's image and God gets angry.

[59:32] So I'm sure he understands that we are going to be angry at times, too. But he gets he doesn't dwell in his anger and we shouldn't dwell.

[59:42] I think I think what we're all kind of agreeing with is that we do need to be able to get angry, express anger. It's OK. Yeah. But but not stay there.

[59:54] Yeah, exactly. And there's again, there is rest in that. If I have a difficult encounter at a meeting where whatever is happening or somebody says something and I find it, it either makes me upset or maybe angry or defensive a little bit.

[60:09] Usually when I leave and I go home, usually by within about half an hour, it's gone because I start reframing it into what that person is dealing with, what they're going through and reminding myself that it's not personal.

[60:25] Most of the time it is not personal. And, you know, some of this. Is. Is part of what this is about.

[60:39] Listen to God. Listen to what God is teaching. If we listen and and obey to what God is saying about I am your God and you are my people, I will not abandon you.

[60:54] I will always care for you. I will redeem you. I will teach you the right ways. I will raise you up in the paths that you should go. Then there is a lot more rest because we're not flailing about looking for whatever the right thing to do is when we're only using our own resources.

[61:15] And there's there is a lot of rest in that. So, again, my. And my hope and my thought during these times that are so tumultuous is I feel like we have to find those places more often, which may mean dig more dirt and move more things and, you know, get our hands dirty or do something.

[61:38] I think that's probably why people made so much bread early on and COVID. I never did do any sourdough bread. I've never made any starter or anything like that.

[61:49] And and of course, now here we are six months later and they saying the obesity rate is going up in the United States. And it's like, no kidding. Everybody's been stuck at home for the last six months cooking.

[62:02] I saw something on Facebook. It said you're either going to come out of this a chunk, a hunk, a monk or a drunk. You know, yeah, there's a there's a lot of a lot of that.

[62:18] And what we're still waiting for is the coming out of it. Yeah. How will we come out of it? Because that gives you the impression that it's going to end, which it will be different.

[62:29] And so. One of the things in Hebrews 5, 11, maybe somebody could read Hebrews 5, 11 through 14.

[62:48] We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again.

[63:10] You need milk, not solid food. Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

[63:21] But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

[63:32] How do you apply? How would we how would we apply that that there are people who maybe because they've either lost their way or they didn't learn need the baby food approach?

[63:47] What would that? What does that tell us about? How we interact with other people when we want them to understand faith?

[64:02] Yeah, I think about that in counseling and with Christian counseling. The goal is, of course, to understand and help them solve the problem, but to point to Christ and how he can meet their particular need.

[64:18] And I'm always having to kind of figure out where they're at in order to present that. And it does take some discernment.

[64:30] And discernment comes from God. I don't, you know, have all the answers. And so I think that there's thought that goes into it.

[64:43] There's a lot of just thought about discerning the way that I would present something. So what I hear you saying, and you can tell me if this is what I'm hearing, is that you you figure out where that person is in their faith journey.

[65:02] Are they are they baby food? Are they soft solids? Are they solids, but no carrots or chips or things like that? Or have they graduated on to everything?

[65:15] Right. And sometimes it's yeah, that's absolutely right, Pastor Kathy. And sometimes it's trial and error, you know, you try to hand them a piece of salad food and they're not going to be able to swallow it. So you go, you know, it's just sometimes it's just trial and error.

[65:27] And sometimes it's just a lot of listening and prayer and discernment. So, yeah. So here we are for people that have been raised in faith, at least if not in our childhood, in our adulthood and or all of our lives.

[65:45] We have some level of familiarity. Pretty soon, Josh is going to be able to recite to us the entire Bible because he will have read it and memorized it and all of that.

[65:56] And, you know, you know, you know, when I'm I'm looking for someday for someone to preach, I'm going to come and find you. I don't know about that. You can give that a rest for a little while.

[66:07] I'm only in Ezekiel right now. I'm getting there. So we get some good news and then we'll have you share it. Yeah, sure. That'd be great. Yeah. We sometimes don't even realize how steeped in the language and the understanding, the assumptions.

[66:31] When I was new in church and in faith and people would talk about things and the assumption that everybody knew what they were talking about.

[66:41] And I always use the example of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, which is in every vacation Bible school. There's always the song about the fire and the fiery furnace and all of that.

[66:54] And for a person like me, it was like, what are you talking about? And I use them because they're they are they do show up in song. But Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are actually relatively obscure biblical characters.

[67:09] You know, whatever vacation Bible school loves to pull from the Old Testament. I'm not always sure why. But. But it's hero stories of assuming that people, you know, I've got this.

[67:25] This is a discipleship study Bible. So if you are in a group and you say, well, let's let's all turn to Matthew. How many assumptions are we making there that everybody knows that Matthew is in the New Testament and where to find it?

[67:44] And that what is it you're talking about? Like the fact that Matthew is a book in the Bible and this happens to be a Bible that not only has all of that kind of those kinds of things, but it has Maccabees and, you know, the whole the whole nine yards.

[68:04] But I've seen people who want to come to a Bible study or a small group or something and they find themselves.

[68:16] And it's hopefully not humiliated, but completely lost because. You've got graduate school Christians. We gourmet food coming to a Bible study or a class with people that are.

[68:33] And they're liquid diet only, you know, baby food. Spoon feed it. And trying to figure out how do we how do we do all of that?

[68:46] How do we navigate those those waters? And this particular chapter or section about this, we have much to say that is hard to explain.

[69:03] It does go on to say since you have become dull and understanding. So did Josh, did you go to school recently? Did you were you in school and then you weren't in school and now you're in school?

[69:14] I was last semester, I was in school, like attending classes till. March.

[69:28] Well, school was over. No, it wasn't. Yeah, it was around March was was when we like all switched into online stuff. And suddenly teachers who have never taught an online course in their entire career had to learn this now.

[69:43] Like you have to know how to record your lecture and post it online with notes and things right now. And a lot of people did not actually know that.

[69:54] And I know for quite a few teachers, it was actually quite rough. The transition. I know my English teacher was saying how, you know, coming to school and teaching classes was her interaction with society.

[70:09] You know, it was it was her seeing her to her classmates and things like that was part of the highlight of her day. And now suddenly she's alone all the time.

[70:21] And all she has to do is just read through people's papers and things all the time. And, you know, that's jarring for people. And I know for this right here, it's.

[70:33] So, you know, you can't teach people. Things that they're not ready to learn yet. Like if you drop somebody into differential equations when they haven't passed calculus one, they're not going to learn anything.

[70:51] There's nothing. You can't learn anything anyway. You can't either. You just dropped me into a place I don't want to go. Yeah. Well, because, you know, if you're going to drop someone into algebra and they don't know admission, you're not going to be able to teach them anything.

[71:08] Because there needs to be a buildup with stuff. You can't just like, you know, I can't ask my mom for homework for help on my homework. Because I would have to explain so much ahead of time that I would probably have just figured it out by explaining it to her again.

[71:26] So, you know, you need to judge where other people are. But it also says that there's a verse here. It is hard to make it clear because you no longer try to understand.

[71:42] You know, if you're trying to teach a child 2 plus 2, but they want to go play with their blocks, they're not going to learn 2 plus 2.

[71:53] They're going to go play with their blocks. They have to have a coordination of people, of the student trying to understand and the teacher giving the correct information and the little bits and then the big bits later on.

[72:11] Knowing how best to teach and the people being willing to be taught. Right. And I think that, I think of another kind of teaching that is when a child is ready to ride their bike without the training wheels, they're physically ready, they're coordinated enough, but they're terrified.

[72:34] And so they refuse. And they, or even transitioning from a tricycle to a bike with training wheels.

[72:45] And one of my friends has a little boy. And recently she showed a picture of him in the driveway, the bike's laying on his side and, and he's crying.

[72:56] She said, if you think something happened, no, it didn't happen. It's that he got on his bike and he was going to try it. And he kind of tripped a little bit. He didn't fall, but the bike fell over and that was it.

[73:08] He was done. Wasn't going to learn anymore. So people, when it comes to stories of faith and God, you know, this is, this is a lot.

[73:21] This is a lot. And when we are called to be mature in our faith, but I think sometimes mature in our faith is recognizing that there are those around us who are only as mature as they are, but there may not be as mature as we are.

[73:43] They may be the fact that they show up and have a question. That's a huge deal. Um, and it's exciting.

[73:55] It's exciting to see people when they're taught in a non-anxious presence in a way, place where they get to be, where nobody's going to roll their eyes because they don't know that Matthew's in the New Testament, which happens to be in the back of the Bible.

[74:10] Because, you know, just because we know that doesn't mean everybody knows that. Um, matter of being sensitive. Right. That's what I like about the disciple one too.

[74:21] Also. It is. And, you know, and, and yet disciple one, you hand out that, that book and the assignments.

[74:31] And there are people who are like, what? Yeah. Yeah. Like you want me to read three readings a day and seven days a week and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

[74:43] Um, which is why one of the study there's, there's a lot of things to do, but anyway, it's, um, it's a call to maturity, but it's okay.

[74:54] For people, I always said that churches, the, the, the mission or vision of a church should be some version of everybody has a way that they can enter and everybody can enter at the level where they are.

[75:08] Everybody comes in where they are and we find ways to help them to move along to whatever's next. Um, with the caveat being everybody's welcome.

[75:20] Um, you can even come in and say, you don't believe at all, but if you're willing to be in conversation, let's talk and, um, and be able to help people go from misbelief or disbelief or whatever the case might be to realizing that it's in acceptance that people move.

[75:44] Absolutely. Um, uh, pastor who was in the church. In my stream when I was at Gawanda, um, streams are meetings that Carlos had with groups of pastors.

[75:57] He was saying that there was one gentleman. Well, there was a woman in his church that would come faithfully every week, but because her husband needed care, she had to bring him with her, but he was not a believer at all.

[76:14] So he would just sit there and grumble. And it was probably, I don't remember the timeline, maybe nine months to a year. And, um, came time for communion.

[76:27] And this, this pastor was always, um, very loving whenever this guy said, you know, leaving the church every Sunday.

[76:38] I, I, I don't believe, you know, I don't believe, you know, until one Sunday, it came time to communion. And he came up with his walker to receive communion.

[76:49] And he believed then. Yep. The pastor didn't say anything and they just looked each other in the eye and he took communion and went back to his seat.

[77:02] And he said, you know, I've always, you know, people do communion in a lot of different ways. And my, my style of inviting people to communion, um, is there are some who will invite those who believe.

[77:20] It's even a part of some of our liturgy. If you believe then come. And I, I refuse to say that because I believe that between there and here, a person can believe.

[77:34] And that if you feed them, you don't have to believe to receive the body and the blood of Christ, which is why, um, I have served churches where we have served children as young as the parents want them to have communion.

[77:48] And that's, that's how it was. Is it Pendleton? Yeah. That's how it's been in the past. Next, next week. We'll, this coming Sunday will be the first time that some of our little ones will get those little cups.

[78:01] And fortunately their parents will be with them so they can help sort that out. And when they put that cracker in their mouth and they're like, yeah, rinse it down with the grape juice.

[78:12] Um, but yeah, it isn't up to us to decide how somebody deserves. Communion or that there's a gate. Yeah. And, um, and I think most pastors, most pastors, if they say that those who believe they're not even aware of, of how that could be an obstacle.

[78:31] They don't even hear themselves say it. Um, so. I, I've heard, um, if you want Jesus in your heart. Or you welcome Jesus in your heart.

[78:44] Um, yeah. I've heard that said. It's, um, yeah. And I just think there's part of that, parts of that, that are, um, we invite, we offer and God takes care of the rest.

[79:03] Amen. Amen. Yeah. Um, and, you know, the, that we started with trust and obey.

[79:15] Um, and there's. An invitation. An invitation. That. We can reflect.

[79:27] In our own looking at these verses. Where and when have we not been willing or open to listening. When, where have we become dull in our understanding because for whatever reason, um, or closed off.

[79:45] The guidance that Moses or any other prophet or teacher is guiding us because maybe they said something we don't agree with. Or we're not ready or we're afraid.

[79:58] We kind of shut it down. Um, a lot of people don't like the hymn trust and obey because kind of like where people don't want, um, obedience in marriage vows.

[80:13] And, you know, I didn't have obedience and we didn't want that. And some people will say, well, it's okay if you both say it. Yeah. Okay. I just don't think obedience in the way we understand obedience is needs to be there.

[80:27] But there's, um, I think that people resisted because of that obedience thing. And yet when, as I started, when you look at some of the words and we think about, he abides with us still and with all who trust and obey, there's no other way to be happy in Jesus.

[80:50] Trust and obey because there's, um, a sense of joy that comes in that. Not a shadow can rise, not a cloud in the skies, but his smile quickly drives it away.

[81:02] Hmm. You know, we can, not a doubt or a fear, not a sigh or a tear can abide while we trust and obey. If we really lean into that and let God hold our tears and our fears and the clouds and all of that, then I think that we can do that.

[81:21] Um, and there's, um, but the, the, the kinder. Kind of the, the message of.

[81:37] There is rest. If we trust. And there is rest. If we live within the boundaries of the commandments and the greatest commandment.

[81:49] Um, that there is rest. Um, and so I think that, you know, my hope for us this night and these days is that we can rest.

[82:03] That we can rest. That we can rest. In our curiosity and our questions and also rest in our assurance that we can garden or swim or read peacefully.

[82:19] Knowing that the presence of God is with us. Any, any other thoughts about these chapters of Hebrews before we end?

[82:32] I have, you know, I don't know if you have Bible gateway on your phones.

[82:49] Um, I actually, in my driving around this week. Just kept listening. I listened to NIV and I, that it only has, it doesn't have common English.

[83:02] It doesn't have NRSV, but it has NIV and it has. It has the message. I mean, the common English Bibles on the computer version, but not on the phone in terms of reading to you.

[83:14] Because it'll read out loud, read, it'll read the scriptures out loud to you. And I found myself listening. To nice. Um. And I found that to be that to be very helpful.

[83:27] That's a great idea. Yep. I actually do that to keep myself focused. I, I turn it on to the NIV and then I have it play with my headphones on and I'll read along with it.

[83:40] Because I know for a fact, if I just read or if I just listened, I would very quickly, my, my mind would wander and I'd do something else. Or do you, you know, think of something else and you all, and, and you need to read it, look at it and read it.

[83:56] So it actually is very nice because the NIV, it, it kept, you know, you just put it on and just listen to it. When you read along and things. And because you can also take a break when it's reading through and you can look at where, whatever it says on the bottom of the page.

[84:12] It says like, has little asterisks and things and you can look at whatever else it says and then go right back up and continue reading as it, as it was. And I, I'm, I'm the kind of person that if I'm, when I'm in the car, I'm trapped in the car, not going anywhere.

[84:29] So if I, I mean, I listen to all kinds of things, podcasts, I pay more attention. I listen to books, but listening to scripture, especially scripture that we're going to be talking about, or I'm going to be preaching on, or that's a part of my devotion.

[84:47] Having it read to me. There's, you know, I have a couple of devotional apps on my phone where they read the passage to me. And one of those apps even is with a, some kind of British Isle accent.

[85:02] Um, so I like that too. Um, but I find it to be, um, I, I have to do it sometimes more than once because my mind does drift off.

[85:18] Whereas if you're looking and listening at the same time, maybe you have a better chance, but, um, I also get distracted by having to drive. So.

[85:29] Gets in the way. Gets in the way, the traffic, stuff like that. Um, so. All right.

[85:40] Well, um, next week we're going to be looking at seven through 10. Well, we'll go back and pick up a little bit of six, but it's largely going to be seven through 10.

[85:51] Um, so if you have a chance to read that and poke around in the asterisks and see what, what you can bring.

[86:02] Um, we'll look at that together. It's time for rest. Right. All right. Laurie. Mm hmm. A little yawn there. Sorry. Oh, no. It's that time of night.

[86:12] Do you have, are you going to rest, Josh? Or are you going to. Uh, I, I'm not sure yet. I think I'm, I'm probably going to make some dinner.

[86:22] I actually, now that I think about it, have anything to eat today. Probably should. Nothing at all today? No, I was, I was busy doing, uh, well, cause I, I have my morning exercises and, and then I was, uh, doing homework.

[86:37] I was going to like take a break and make lunch. And I mean, I got done about 45 minutes ahead of this and I started at about noon. Um, so, that's all that.

[86:49] Wow. What are you going to school for, Josh? Uh, mechanical engineering. So it is remarkably harder than I thought it was going to be. Uh, much harder actually than I thought it was going to be.

[87:04] And making it everything online doesn't exactly make it easier. So. Do you like it? I, I, I like it when I, when I know what I'm doing, it's actually quite fun.

[87:17] But learning what to do is much more difficult. And I mean, I'm also learning things that I don't think I would have any reason to know, but I'm learning them anyways.

[87:33] Why, why not? Well, learning them hopefully, you know, anyways, but actually with that, uh, last passage and, and wherever we just read, it was, you know, you're supposed to be teachers by now, but you're being like fed baby food and all that.

[87:52] And, and yeah, I'm, I'm in my fourth year of this and I feel like I, I'm probably not actually understanding as much as I should probably should be knowing. And so, you know, they're, they'll have things where it's like, you should probably have learned this in some other class by now.

[88:07] I'm like, maybe. Maybe. Maybe I don't remember or I didn't understand it. Exactly. You know, I. There's a lot that if you can get through the education part, you learn in the doing, not the.

[88:23] There's on the job training for almost every job, regardless of your education level. I don't care if you got a master's degree in structural engineering, they're not going to just go build a bridge. It doesn't, people don't do that.

[88:35] You need to actually learn doing it. So, cause it's, it's much more difficult than doing it just on a, from a textbook.

[88:45] It's, it's, those are, have answers that you're supposed to get. You know, there is no correct answer for quite a few things. So I'm getting there. It's, it's working.

[88:56] It's getting there. Good thing. My, my exposure to things like that was you give me a problem and I solve it and you tell me that I got it wrong because I didn't solve it the way you said I should solve it.

[89:09] And my, you said I want extra credit for coming up with a new way of figuring it out. Yeah. Which goes to say that trigonometry and some of that stuff isn't my cup of tea.

[89:20] Well, I mean, trig, especially my Calc one professor called it trig trash because no one knows, no one knows it. It's, it's no fun. No one likes it. Oh, it's terrible.

[89:32] But that was, that was, yeah. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. Hopefully. Hopefully. You are getting there. And I pray that everybody goes encouraged and that you find something good to eat and that we all rest in every possible way tonight.

[89:49]  So go in peace, my friends. Amen. Right. God bless. Good night.